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Waiting for SO 7 update news

I wonder what is the current trend with spatial audio music but I know no one that listens to music other than stereo or right off the phone speaker :)

If I were to guess - there is no trend.

Still have not come across a single co-worker, colleague or anyone in my inner (or outer) circle that has even mentioned "spatial" audio to me - ever.

VP
 
I think it was right after Apple added Dolby Atmos to Logic and tried hard to push the spatial audio as the new standard so some users thought that would happen, panicked and wanted that feature in their DAWs.

So it was likely these users more than who mix Star Wars or Avatar
I wonder what is the current trend with spatial audio music but I know no one that listens to music other than stereo or right off the phone speaker :)
Compared to movies and games, the benefits of Atmos for music are not as significant because traditional music is performed in a fixed location, directly in front of the audience, whether it's classical music concerts or modern electronic music. Aside from some special treatments, the actual return on investment for double the price of speakers and processors is not substantial.

Due to my work, I know many wealthy people, but their expensively built private Atmos theaters are only used for watching movies. When listening to music, they prefer to use a pair of high-end HiFi speakers and a high-end stereo (dual mono) amplifier.
 
Compared to movies and games, the benefits of Atmos for music are not as significant because traditional music is performed in a fixed location, directly in front of the audience, whether it's classical music concerts or modern electronic music. Aside from some special treatments, the actual return on investment for double the price of speakers and processors is not substantial.

Due to my work, I know many wealthy people, but their expensively built private Atmos theaters are only used for watching movies. When listening to music, they prefer to use a pair of high-end HiFi speakers and a high-end stereo (dual mono) amplifier.

I do find it fascinating that all this tech is super hyped and none of it ends up going anywhere.

Still can’t grasp who comes up with this stuff and who thinks it’s worth anyone’s time.

I already adore my high end analog delivery system here and have zero desire to rebuy any gear or god forbid - listen to any spacial audio via a streaming service.

VP
 
In my personal understanding, I think movies and games have a higher demand for precise positioning across all directions, while music doesn't require as much. For example, I don't see the significance of a guitar playing behind me or a string orchestra overhead. However, being able to accurately hear footsteps behind me or a plane flying overhead is important for games and movies.

The promotion of Atmos music has had a side effect: newly emerging Atmos mixing engineers, in order to show that they are "making Atmos," are overusing Objects. It's like how novice mixing engineers like to use large reverbs and exaggerated effects to showcase their arsenal.
I do find it fascinating that all this tech is super hyped and none of it ends up going anywhere.

Still can’t grasp who comes up with this stuff and who thinks it’s worth anyone’s time.

I already adore my high end analog delivery system here and have zero desire to rebuy any gear or god forbid - listen to any spacial audio via a streaming service.

VP
 
When listening to music, they prefer to use a pair of high-end HiFi speakers and a high-end stereo (dual mono) amplifier.
Here's the thing, Atmos MUSIC had/has incredible potential... who was that composer that had the idea of surrounding the audience with four different orchestras from all sides? Stravinsky, Bruckner? I forget.

But who on earth that is making good music currently -- not per se, those making TV and film soundtracks and have worked with surround setups already for years -- is actually willing to take the time and effort to retool their entire production style and way of thinking about writing and recording traditional stereo music to make music that is vastly more complicated only for a tiny fraction of listeners?

It's worth pointing out, when surround mixing first became popular, we didn't have studios/labels/artists champing at the bit to produce music for 7.1, even. So the notion that this was somehow supposed to happen with Atmos was quite silly.

Dolby paid Deadmau5 to try to generate Atmos hype, even saying he would work primarily in Atmos in the future at the end of their promo video... I was highly dubious at those words.

Brian Eno did some work with it, but he had some weird algorithm-selected loops that people could trigger themselves, like a pseudo-interactive type thing... sounds cool on a tech level, but is nothing like what I'm talking about.

For one thing you essentially have to double/triple the amount of parts written and recorded to provide enough movement for all the beds. That's an enormous engineering and production overhead, in a time where studio budgets have radically decreased instead of going up.

Dolby and Apple both made a mistake with Atmos: They failed to bring the actual producers on board with it, and there's virtually no team capable of both writing/composing and producing in Atmos effectively, it's just too expensive and the few who are capable of doing it have no motivation to do so.

In order for Atmos to take off, we need a revolutionary who is both willing and has the capacity to show people how magical of an experience being surrounded by musical voices can be. There was never going to be a demand for this, because the thing Dolby wants people to want does not exist, just as no one knew they wanted The Beatles until they existed. They're turning over rocks to look for golden eggs when they should have first invested in the golden-goose conservation program.

In other words, there was never going to be an Atmos demand until an artist/producer combo created Atmos demand.

In the end, much like that composer (apparently it was Stockhausen, I looked it up), Dolby/Apple's 'Spatial music' idea looks incredible on paper, but the technical expense required to engineer such music simply doesn't math out.
 
If I were to guess - there is no trend.

Still have not come across a single co-worker, colleague or anyone in my inner (or outer) circle that has even mentioned "spatial" audio to me - ever.

VP
Spatial Audio is default for anyone listening to an iPhone through Apple’s AirPods or Beats earphones, or who has an Apple TV 4K attached to a home cinema system. They may not be actively aware of what they’re listening to, but they will notice the difference if they drop to regular stereo. That’s not to say that the music industry has taken much notice of the technology, but it’s penetrated much more than VP implies.
 
Spatial Audio is default for anyone listening to an iPhone through Apple’s AirPods or Beats earphones, or who has an Apple TV 4K attached to a home cinema system. They may not be actively aware of what they’re listening to, but they will notice the difference if they drop to regular stereo. That’s not to say that the music industry has taken much notice of the technology, but it’s penetrated much more than VP implies.

Well - yeah. If one actually uses Apple Music or one actually owns a Apple TV 4K box - which I know of exactly one person in my circle.

They do not own an ATMOS capable audio system either.

Spotify - however is like water here in Canada - it's everywhere.

Overall - just because one service forces "spatial" on as a default - does equal penetration or mean this trend is "taking off" in any way. They have been doing this for at least two years now and still have 12%-13% streaming market share worldwide.

For something to really take off - everyone needs to be on board. Do not see this changing anytime soon.

VP
 
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I was prodded to mix in atmos and did; I'll admit the album was never released in atmos because I did such a bad job at it.

I don't get the no busses thing, I don't get why anyone would want it, I don't understand how to mix it how I'd want it to sound like. I know several engineers who do great work mixing in Atmos. At least, I think they do great work. I've never been able to listen to their mixes in anything but stereo.
 
Compared to movies and games, the benefits of Atmos for music are not as significant because traditional music is performed in a fixed location, directly in front of the audience, whether it's classical music concerts or modern electronic music. Aside from some special treatments, the actual return on investment for double the price of speakers and processors is not substantial.

This underscores why not exploiting binaural rendering is insane. Since there's no investment (assuming the listener already has headphones or earbuds), there's no need to be concerned with return on investment. In return, you get sound quality that's closer to what you experience in a live performance compared to listening to a stereo recording. But again...nobody cares, because they haven't experienced listening to a series of decent binaural mixes on headphones. So, they don't know what they're missing. And companies just want to sell you more hardware instead of encourage you to use what you already own.

Compare these with headphones. After listening to the binaural version, at least to my ears the stereo mix sounds flat and two-dimensional.

Binaural
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Stereo
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Well - yeah. If one actually uses Apple Music or one actually owns a Apple TV 4K box - which I know of exactly one person in my circle.

They do not own an ATMOS capable audio system either.

Spotify - however is like water here in Canada - it's everywhere.

Overall - just because one service forces "spatial" on as a default - does equal penetration or mean this trend is "taking off" in any way. They have been doing this for at least two years now and still have 12%-13% streaming market share worldwide.

For something to really take off - everyone needs to be on board. Do not see this changing anytime soon.

VP
I don't know about Canada, but in the USA - a slightly bigger market - Apple Music has 30.7% of the market (2025 figures). In Europe it has rather less, but still between 15 and 25% of the market, depending on the country. Apple TV has around 8% of the market in both the USA and Europe. Far from a majority share, but still a very significant number of people. Netflix, among others, supports Spatial Audio on its premium streaming plan. Of course, all of the video streaming companies use variants of 5.1/7.1/Atmos in much of their content. It may not be big in music streaming for many creators, but it's out there and it's getting more penetration. I don't particularly care about it from my own creative PoV, but I do as a consumer.
 
It may not be big in music streaming for many creators, but it's out there and it's getting more penetration. I don't particularly care about it from my own creative PoV, but I do as a consumer.

For me - I remain skeptical and unfortunately unchanged given the hype this had a couple of years ago. Then (and now) it seemed like a backroom deal cut between Apple, Dolby and a few others to try to make it relevant.

Sorta like when Apple thought it was a good idea to distrubute that lame U2 album to every iTunes user back in the day. Or Microsoft actually believing that people are going to base their computing lives around CoPilot.

Have to hand it to them for trying but "trying" is all this is ever going to be.

VP
 
Compare these with headphones. After listening to the binaural version, at least to my ears the stereo mix sounds flat and two-dimensional.

Binaural
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Stereo
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Call me crazy, but I much prefer the stereo version, by far actually.
 
Fair enough, and you're not alone. It's all very subjective, like the people who prefer foldback distortion on virtual instruments compared to oversampling. You did listen on headphones, yes? Binaural sounds weird on speakers.
 
I've listened to it twice. First with a pair of HD 598 and then with the HD 58X, both EQ'd to the Harman Curve. Might be the problem here, I couldn't tell.
The binaural version sounds weird to my ears, almost unpleasant, whereas the stereo version sounds as normal as it gets
 
Well, here's something interesting. I actually listened to the binaural version again on YouTube. It didn't sound right. So I opened the original master I uploaded and compared them side-by-side. The YouTube version was definitely brighter and somewhat "phasey." I also compared the stereo versions side-by-side, and there was no change. I know extra brightness can be a side effect of AAC compression, but I wonder if binaural accentuates the difference. I'm going to run some tests with an unlisted URL to try and figure out what's going on. Thanks for listening, that was very useful feedback. I'm also going to re-visit the two other binaural songs I posted.
 
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This underscores why not exploiting binaural rendering is insane. Since there's no investment (assuming the listener already has headphones or earbuds), there's no need to be concerned with return on investment. In return, you get sound quality that's closer to what you experience in a live performance compared to listening to a stereo recording. But again...nobody cares, because they haven't experienced listening to a series of decent binaural mixes on headphones. So, they don't know what they're missing. And companies just want to sell you more hardware instead of encourage you to use what you already own.
Brace for some strong opinions Craig, you've wandered into my wheelhouse!
(All spoken with due respect, of course)

So Bruce Swedien was a masterful binaural-maker producer way before it was remotely popular, truly ahead of his time.

Check out the chorus here from 'Man in the Middle' on Michael Jackson's 'Bad' record (Listen on a streaming platform if possible, YT quality is shite):

That is recorded with a Blumlein pair, or what Bruce called a 'coincident pair'. It's the binaural recording technique (if you're not buying Neumann's $10k 'dummy head' mic... but we won't get into that).

The capacity for great binaural recordings has existed for a long time, way before the idea of 'upmixing' had any relevance.

The hateful truth is, at any given moment on earth there is a handful of genuine masters working with genuine artists. The Bruce+MJ combo was one of them... but you need budgets and talent to do all this, which are both in dire supply, perhaps moreso than they've been in my lifetime in the realm of contemporary music.

So in this current landscape where everyone is using 'binaural' as a stand-in for 'spatial' audio -- it makes me shed a single tear inside as an engineer knowing the techniques have been around forever and the industry is marketing a version that is in essence a cheap knock-off.
 
Well, here's something interesting. I actually listened to the binaural version again on YouTube. It didn't sound right. So I opened the original master I uploaded and compared them side-by-side. The YouTube version was definitely brighter and somewhat "phasey." I also compared the stereo versions side-by-side, and there was no change. I know extra brightness can be a side effect of AAC compression, but I wonder if binaural accentuates the difference. I'm going to run some tests with an unlisted URL to try and figure out what's going on. Thanks for listening, that was very useful feedback. I'm also going to re-visit the two other binaural songs I posted.

LOL, I actually did a blind A/B of them and wrote a whole thesis on it.

Bad timing! 😩

I'll wait for a reupload somewhere and re-listen to it before I post my thoughts.

🍺
 
Well, here's something interesting. I actually listened to the binaural version again on YouTube. It didn't sound right. So I opened the original master I uploaded and compared them side-by-side. The YouTube version was definitely brighter and somewhat "phasey." I also compared the stereo versions side-by-side, and there was no change. I know extra brightness can be a side effect of AAC compression, but I wonder if binaural accentuates the difference. I'm going to run some tests with an unlisted URL to try and figure out what's going on. Thanks for listening, that was very useful feedback. I'm also going to re-visit the two other binaural songs I posted.
I've had this 'washy phazy' issue with several binaural mixes posted to YT as compared to proofing mixes that are posted directly to my limited access media server. A couple of music directors from film projects last year pointed out to me that the YT upload compression wreaks havoc on binaural moreso than on stereo proofs, but even they suffer noticable degradation.
Luckily, the export stems arrive on the scoring stage with intended integrity.
They're fun to demo from YT, but don't respectfully represent the intention or detail.
 
That is recorded with a Blumlein pair, or what Bruce called a 'coincident pair'. It's the binaural recording technique (if you're not buying Neumann's $10k 'dummy head' mic... but we won't get into that).

I understand where you're coming from, and agree with your conclusions...but not necessarily how you got there. It's true Alan Blumlein used the word "binaural" in the 30s. But unfortunately the audio industry does not have a style guide, and the meaning has changed in the past 90 years. In "modern" usage, binaural recording has come to represent what that Neumann dummy head does - mics placed at ear positions, intended for headphone playback, and capable of capturing HRTF cues, ear shadowing, and pinna filtering. So given that the Blumlein pari is designed to produce a realistic stereo image for speakers or headphones, it's considered a stereo technique, not a binaural one. Then again, we're in an industry where aftertouch has five different names that all mean the same thing...

I listen to my binaural mixes on headphones when I take walks, and prefer them to the stereo mixes. But, they're 48 kHz uncompressed WAV files. I guess I'd need to get them on Tidal or do downloadable FLAC files or something to be able to demo them properly. I've learned my lesson about binaural and YouTube. It has added a 256 kbps option for music videos if you subscribe to YouTube premium, but the free tier is typically 128 kbps for stereo on iOS and older devices, so you have 64 kbps per channel. No wonder there's a problem. Their Opus codec is most common for desktop and Android, and it runs around 160 kbps - in theory. But, YouTube changes the bitrate dynamically based on the device and network connection. So who knows what you're really getting...I don't.

BTW thumbs up to the Swedien comment. We did some seminars together in Mexico and he was your basic humble superstar, with humor added into the mix. We got to hang at various times and it was always educational. Fortunately, I didn't suffer any lasting physical injuries from laughing too hard :)
 
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