Rick Beato really, really dislikes Fender...

[Craig Anderton]

Craig what's your take on the Elektron takeover by Bonner Capital.

Well, there was a grammatical error in the text shown in your post Seriously, I have no idea. The reason any company acquires another one is because the entity buying the company thinks it can make money.

The question is how do they think they'll make money from Elektron? Their list of investments includes quite a few that involve media, music, and video. They also have an infrastructure that could benefit a company like Elektron. Best case is that they bought Elektron because they felt its potential was nowhere close to being reached, and Bonner could help them meet that potential. Or maybe they want to add an educational element, like doing music education based around an inexpensive hardware component. (My Secrets of Synthesis eBook is that kind of concept. It bundles a software modular synth with an eBook about synthesis techniques that use the software.)

Many of their investments seem to provide services that fulfill a need, rather than rape and pillage the environment, build things that kill people, or engage in espionage on consumers. It's also a family-owned group. Fingers crossed that Elektron will be in good hands.

 

[BobF]

I recently sold my Fender Strat and replaced it with a PRS SE NFS. This was before Fender started their IP enforcement attempts. IMO, Fender Strats and Gibson LPs are the same in their offerings - a bazillion colors, a bazillion reissues, a bazillion artist models, etc.

I have one Gibson LP that was a 10th anniversary gift from my wife 25+ years ago. I don't need more of them.

IMO, guitars reached commodity status years ago. Fender and Gibson both have had their share of problems staying viable in the guitar space. Just like Harley-Davidson with motorcycles, their core demographic is aging out. Declining businesses pull whatever levers they have available - and not all available levers work well.

With regard to declining QC, I could make a case for QC declining across all retail offerings. In the current environment, it is much more cost-effective to replace a percentage of units than to push QC for reduced returns.

I expect my guitars to continue working if their mfrs fail. DAWs? I moved to SO after Gibson dumped SONAR. If something happens to FSP, I'll likely move to Reaper.

Such is life.

 

[Gary Shepherd]

I'm normally a fan of Rick Beato but I thought he was biased and unfair in this video - we know from the past that he has had Paul Reed Smith on his channel - and this issue mostly concerns the Silver Sky (I said this from the start that it was aimed at PRS). For Fender, the arrogance of PRS (like with the Gibson Les Paul) when they said they were "improving" a classic, was the deciding factor. How typical that Paul and his mates should paint Fender as the bad guy. For Rick to say Fender guitars were "crap" was I think pretty terrible and untrue - I have been a subscriber to Guitarist magazine for years and they have never said this. Fender will recover the reputation - Gibson did. Gibson lost but PRS were forced to change the design of the Single Cut (a horrible guitar). I am sure PRS will have to change some aspect of the Silver Sky - and Paul will do his usual job of playing the victim and acting as the man of the people. He really should stick to his own designs.

 

[Craig Anderton]

the existing stock dating from the early 1950s to the present is so vast anyone looking for one today or fifty years from now can still choose from a deep pool of candidates

Let's just say the time is not optimum for selling a guitar on reverb.com . You're right, there's a major glut.

 

[TonalDynamics]

My observation with the original thread was an immediate loss of focus.

It is one thing to have a measured, well purposed discussion/opinion about the lawsuit (agree/disagree), it's implications (good/bad) and so on. If it would have stayed in that lane - probably would have been just fine.

But that thread immediately turned into a finger pointing exercise and then inexplicably into gross speculation about Fender's marketing moves on Studio Pro, how the "guitar business" is somehow going to take down our little DAW, how Native Instruments plays in this (?) then into nationalism, private equity, Kontakt engines and so on.

Folks - if we really want longer thread life (in the Lounge or anywhere on here) - we need to work on having better discussions.

VP

Isn't 'loss of focus' kind of the whole point of lounge forums everywhere?
Again, as I asked Lukas, which rules were being broken?

 

[TonalDynamics]

How typical that Paul and his mates should paint Fender as the bad guy.

Fender IS the bad guy here, Gary. According to Timmy P. et al, not just Beato, it's the QC that's the main issue, not even this lawsuit.

I'd like to see Fender do what Paul did on the factory floor with Rick and just pull a guitar out of a box and have it be set up, intonated and fretting perfectly straight from the floor.

Just like Tim said (which Rick echoed), just stop cutting QC corners, damn it, and people would buy your guitars again instead of saving up for a PRS.

Servco-Pacific acquired controlling interest in Fender 5 years ago, and the new CEO would have, at the very least, met with their approval.
The potential net effect of this on exacerbating Fender's poor judgement recently can not be dismissed out of hand.

Hmm. I‘ll offer my 2 Pfennigs and then leave it alone.
I did not know the breadth and depth of Fender‘s erasure of everything Presonus. If I had been a long time user of Studio One, I‘d be quite pissed off. A lot of work by Craig and others just POOF?! Gone? That is really out of line and disrespectful.
On the other issue, I wish them luck trying to force Yamaha or PRS to abandon their ST model guitars. I was thinking of getting one of PRS‘s Silver Light SEs (or whatever they‘re called) Strat knockoffs, but there‘s a Martin D-18 or Yamaha FG9 in my near future.
Both Yamaha Pacificas and the PRS‘s are still for sale at Thomann.
I‘m sure that mostly makes people roll their eyes. The destruction of resources meant to help this community seems more egregious, imo. I‘m grateful for this resource, and while politics can‘t be completely removed from these situations in the musician/recordist community, it is best to not let it get out of hand.

I appreciate your candor in showing solidarity with the old forum's destruction, Olorin.

Some people on this forum seem to under the impression that 'Fender-criticism' of any sort is frowned upon, even disallowed here...
But as Lukas so helpfully just pointed out, this isn't the case.
So I don't know why they are all trying to appeal to corporate, so to speak...

Bulldozing the old forum, tastelessly renaming S1, threatening to sue their competitors using an obscure ruling (that does NOT apply in the United States)... slice it any way you like, Fender is on a roll.

 

[sintil8]

Well, there was a grammatical error in the text shown in your post Seriously,

That's the least of my problems...I'm sure you grasped the meaning and I promise not to have a Brandy before posting again.

Kindest regards

 

[Olorin]

^^^ almost all of my guitars were set up by an actual luthier. My Martins, Lakewoods, Guild, Hanika, Yamaha, and my Fenders off the top of my head. My Strat and Tele play like buttah. So, Fender isn‘t alone in putting out products that require a proper setup. When I first started my collection in 2007, I thought this was an outright scam. The shop I bought from told me the guitar could be ‚made perfect‘ for about 70€ more. ??? felt like I was being shaken down. The last guitar I bought, a PRS SE DGT, only needed slight intonation adjustments.
The only guitar I had that didn‘t respond to his skill was a Les Paul. I had to sell that for half of what I paid for it—even after he did a re-fret.
He is retired, now. So, if I do plunk down 3000€+ for the D18 or the FG9, it is going to have to be correct, out of the box. I would expect Yamaha to have the edge, there.

 

[Vocalpoint]

Isn't 'loss of focus' kind of the whole point of lounge forums everywhere?

Maybe here - it isn't.

Again, as I asked Lukas, which rules were being broken?

Does it really matter? Unfortunately - "we" don't get to make the rules.

And yes - now that Lukas has all but confirmed that "Fender bashing" is 100% legit - if that's what people want to do - have at it - I guess.

I come here to talk about, learn about and assist others on my fav DAW and that's about it.

VP

 

[SwitchBack]

Also, is this closing of threads a true concern or is it just about someone cutting down your favourite tree?

About favourite trees: In a book I read years ago someone had a house built on a plot which had a majestic chestnut tree. He asked the builders to spare the tree so he could still enjoy it when the house was finished. This tree also became the favourite tree of the builders, and by the time the house was finished the tree was dead. Sad and funny (and in a strange way instructive) all at the same time.

 

[TimC340]

On the Fender thing, they seem to have made a big PR mistake. Whether it turns out that way we'll find out in time. From a legal standpoint, I'm sure as part of the court case the target companies will seek to establish just how different the shape has to be to no longer count as infringing Fender copyright, and they'll go right on making their guitars with as small a shape change as they can get away with. And the far Eastern manufacturers will just ignore it all.

If Fender QC is as bad as Rick says it is, the company will eventually succumb to its reputational damage and either sort itself out or accept that it's no longer a quality guitar manufacturer. Which of these will pan out is an unknown right now.

I expect my guitars to continue working if their mfrs fail. DAWs? I moved to SO after Gibson dumped SONAR. If something happens to FSP, I'll likely move to Reaper.

I'm not sure this reads across in any way directly. Despite Gibson's screw-up with Cakewalk, I can still download and use all of my purchased Cakewalk products right now. Indeed, I re-downloaded Z3TA+ 2 only yesterday, and Sonar Pro, Music Creator 6 & 7 and all of the sound libraries I purchased from Cakewalk are still sitting in my Cakewalk account and made available by Bandlab. Whether that would be the case with Studio Pro is an unknown, but as long as you protect your installation you should never lose the use of the software.

 

[Ken Morgan]

This entire thing is ridiculous. If every guitarist on the planet decided to NOT buy a new guitar or amp for six months, and play only what they already had or to purchase used instruments, players would get along just fine. Guitar manufacturers, likely none of them, on the other hand, would not survive. They all rely on new sales. Besides, for the most part its a dang sight cheaper to have an older model set up right than just buy a new one

Same with DAWs...if every DAW user just stopped buying and/or upgrading for six months, how many could survive without their corporate capital venture support?

Being perfectly honest, most businesses these days seems to place their marketing power on 'newest and shiniest' over all else

 

[Vocalpoint]

most businesses these days seems to place their marketing power on 'newest and shiniest' over all else

This has been the “marketing MO” since the beginning of time - for any and all businesses.

There is no sizzle whatsoever in “the old” or the “existing”.

VP

 

[Ken Morgan]

"There is no sizzle whatsoever in “the old” or the “existing”

Very true, VP...but I believe the guitar/amp/production industries are the only ones that creates 'new' items specifically designed to mimic or directly clone items from the 1950s. 58 reissue Strats, 62 reissue telecasters, API 312 and 512 preamps, endless barrage of Neve 1073, 1081, and everything else preamps and channel strips, every tweed, blackface Fender amp ever made (or nowadays 'models' thereof), Samson era Matchless clones, U47 and 67 reissues and clones are everywhere as are recreations of classic RCA ribbons.

DAW makers give users the option to insert console noise and emulate tape hiss and crosstalk (the initial reasons people shied away from consoles in the first place)...imagine the cost of placing an LA2 and a Pultec on EVERY channel of a 48 track unbounced project...entire virtual consoles, possible or not in the real world... and so on ad nauseam.

All I'm suggesting is we (buying population of this stuff) spend a LOT of money on a product's ability to (faithfully or not is irrelevant) recreate the past

 

[Gary Shepherd]

Fender IS the bad guy here, Gary. According to Timmy P. et al, not just Beato, it's the QC that's the main issue, not even this lawsuit.

I'd like to see Fender do what Paul did on the factory floor with Rick and just pull a guitar out of a box and have it be set up, intonated and fretting perfectly straight from the floor.

Just like Tim said (which Rick echoed), just stop cutting QC corners, damn it, and people would buy your guitars again instead of saving up for a PRS.

Servco-Pacific acquired controlling interest in Fender 5 years ago, and the new CEO would have, at the very least, met with their approval.
The potential net effect of this on exacerbating Fender's poor judgement recently can not be dismissed out of hand.



I appreciate your candor in showing solidarity with the old forum's destruction, Olorin.

Some people on this forum seem to under the impression that 'Fender-criticism' of any sort is frowned upon, even disallowed here...
But as Lukas so helpfully just pointed out, this isn't the case.
So I don't know why they are all trying to appeal to corporate, so to speak...

Bulldozing the old forum, tastelessly renaming S1, threatening to sue their competitors using an obscure ruling (that does NOT apply in the United States)... slice it any way you like, Fender is on a roll.

Tim Pierce is not a good example to include as he is a friend of Paul too - and has appeared in videos with Rick and Paul.

 

[Gary Shepherd]

I remember seeing an excruciating video with Alex Lifeson and Paul Reed Smith was sprung on him as some sort of surprise - Smith attempting to poach Lifeson back to PRS in an embarrassing way. Lifeson as we know stopped using PRS guitars and went back to his Les Pauls for touring - and he seemed embarrassed at the ingratiating attempt of Smith. Alex is a nice polite guy and he wasn't having it! As to John Meyer, Rick got some of the move to PRS wrong - Fender would have done what he wanted but PRS offered incentive and almost exclusive time on the development of the Silver Sky - Meyer has access to techs so quality of the Strat could easily have been improved for a "pro" user. You really have to question some of the opinions offered by "friends" of Paul. Paul is a guitar nut but also a ruthless businessman. Fender are trying to protect their company and their legacy against a company constantly trying to undermine it.

 

[TonalDynamics]

All I'm suggesting is we (buying population of this stuff) spend a LOT of money on a product's ability to (faithfully or not is irrelevant) recreate the past

And the trend spans virtually every sector of modern industry Ken... the veritable age of the remake.

'Imagine the expense' of 300 pultecs is unironically the unspoken refrain of all modern marketing efforts, when sadly 'imagine how it all sounds' is a question that has largely gone out the window. Well, I don't have to imagine, and neither do any of us who simply use our God-given ears and listen to the result... which is often pitiful.

Everyone is struggling to sell the most attractive box, while ignoring the quality of what's inside.

I suspect that if our world survives the next century, people from the future will look back and mark that corporate (mis)management and private equity monopolies marked some kind of death knell for creativity and innovation across every domain.

 

[Craig Anderton]

That's the least of my problems...I

To be clear...the error was not in your post! It's in the text from Bonnier's website that you quoted. I contacted them to let them know. So, have another brandy!

 

[Craig Anderton]

Let me try to rein this in a bit. I think the primary concern isn't so much Fender but concern that if Fender falls, Studio One Studio Pro will fall. Many people here used Sonar, and musicians have long memories. It's true that Sonar is back from the dead, and better than it ever was. But in this type of corporate situation that's the exception, not the rule.

So I think fear about losing Studio Pro is what's driving this thread. It's tangentially about Fender only because Fender owns Studio Pro. I don't think that many people here care about the setup of Fender guitars, or rivalries among guitar makers. I also think that none of us can predict with any certainty what will happen to any of the DAWs currently being offered.

 

[sintil8]

To be clear...the error was not in your post! It's in the text from Bonnier's website that you quoted. I contacted them to let them know. So, have another brandy!

Craig, mea culpa, my post does have grammatical error's. Which addresses the point why forums need moderation.
It also raises issues about how easy it is to misunderstand other folks points of view or perspective.

I did like your take of the Bonnier/Elektron buy out. The thing that struck me was the statement of intent. I could be completely wrong here, but did Fender or Presonus issue any form of mission statement re- the SO1 buy out?
If not, then that may be a facet in the bigger picture why folk have concerns and are asking questions about the ongoing development of SO1/FSP8.

Anyway, kindest regards.