How to lock music to a film for certain scenes?

[Codester388]

I'm writing music to film for the first time and have encountered a problem I don't know how to solve.

As an example, let's say I've locked in a cue for the 10m mark, and at this mark my tempo is 75bpm and the time signature is 6/8. Great, all is looking and sounding good. Now I go back to the beginning of the film (let's say 5m mark) and want to add a new cue that's in 4/4 and 100bpm. Well, I tried something like this and it completely messed up my later cue, changing when my tempo and time signature changes happen. How do I go about "locking in" the durations? I want that 6/8 cue to happen at that exact moment in the scene no matter what I change before it.

Is there a way to do this? Any help is appreciated, thanks!

 

[SwitchBack]

No doubt part of the answer lies in selecting the right timebase. I have no experience with film scoring in S1/SP but I can imagine that placing markers on bars can be problematic when changing tempo or signature. Maybe switching time-linear/beat-linear does the trick? You can use the secondary ruler to see bars and frames at the same time.

 

[TimC340]

I'm pretty sure Guy Michelmore tackled something like this issue in one or more of his YT videos. He's using Cubase/Logic, but I don't recall that his method was valid only in those DAWs. Finding which video(s) are relevant might be a bit difficult, but it's worth a shot!

 

[soundofdrums]

Does the scratch pad help? Not sure I’ve tried using different tempos within the scratch pad
I always just write cues in separate songs/sessions then have a master session where I drag them all in as audio stems to hear the arc of the whole film.
Would be good to know if what you’re proposing is possible though.
I know you can time lock the events so they’ll stay where they are in time, but that won’t help with the changing tempo earlier because the grid would be wrong for the locked events. You’d need some way to divide the tempo track into individually contained sections. I don’t know of any DAW that can do that.

 

[lokeyfly]

I'm writing music to film for the first time and have encountered a problem I don't know how to solve.

As an example, let's say I've locked in a cue for the 10m mark, and at this mark my tempo is 75bpm and the time signature is 6/8. Great, all is looking and sounding good. Now I go back to the beginning of the film (let's say 5m mark) and want to add a new cue that's in 4/4 and 100bpm. Well, I tried something like this and it completely messed up my later cue, changing when my tempo and time signature changes happen. How do I go about "locking in" the durations? I want that 6/8 cue to happen at that exact moment in the scene no matter what I change before it.

Is there a way to do this? Any help is appreciated, thanks!

1st, we need to know what PC, OS, version of S1/SP, and equipment in your signature. It's impossible to diagnose to any real accuracy, otherwise. Thanks.

I'm not aware of any video updates that might be in Studio Pro, but in a typical scenario, and this being a DAW, video will not vary or adjust.The video is really just a printed stamp (typ MP4) to play audio along which is fine for many purposes.

When you try to add a time sig that's in 4/4, thats fine, but will likely push out any succeeding time sig changes. However, when you change tempo as in your case to 100 bpm, you're effectively altering on the timeline. Your video will not vary to such tempo changes. This can easily be detected because if you hover over the timeline and change the time (scroll up or down), you will see your video track will never change, but your audio song length will.

Suggestion: If such a change is required, work out the audio to your liking. Then export the track. Use video editing software, and import your audio track. Effectively, your video will have to be adjusted to the audio. That is if I'm fully understanding your need to sync video to the newly adjusted audio. Such adjustments require your video software to meet those time altered needs.

On the positive side, if you set up your video and audio in Studio One/Pro, it will always lock on and not drift. Time signatures will be OK, and yes, may bump out your secondary time signature. So you have to work carefully left (early) to right (late). Time signatures aline changes can be set without issue.

Anyway, we need more detail about your equipment used. Thx.

 

[SwitchBack]

I did some experimenting and, independent from the Timebase you choose, Markers and Arranger Track sections are tied to the beats, so not to bars, time or frames.

This means that Markers and Arranger Track sections stay locked in time (so also locked to frames) as long as the song’s Tempo doesn’t change. Changing the Time Signature only changes the bar numbering but not the position of Markers and Arranger Track sections in beats from the start. But changing the song’s Tempo changes the relation between beats and time, making Markers and Arranger Track sections move in time because they follow the beats.

All this is independent from what you see on the screen. When you set Timebase display to Beat-Linear the Markers and Arranger Track sections don’t move on the screen when you change Tempo or Time Signatures, but the time ruler will move (with Tempo changes) or the bar numbering will change (with Time Signature changes). When Timebase display is set to Time-Linear it locks the time ruler in place. Now only the bar numbering changes when you change the Time Signature, and everything but the time ruler moves when you change the song’s Tempo.

Makes sense?

 

[soundofdrums]

I did some experimenting and, independent from the Timebase you choose, Markers and Arranger Track sections are tied to the beats, so not to bars, time or frames.

This means that Markers and Arranger Track sections stay locked in time (so also locked to frames) as long as the song’s Tempo doesn’t change. Changing the Time Signature only changes the bar numbering but not the position of Markers and Arranger Track sections in beats from the start. But changing the song’s Tempo changes the relation between beats and time, making Markers and Arranger Track sections move in time because they follow the beats.

All this is independent from what you see on the screen. When you set Timebase display to Beat-Linear the Markers and Arranger Track sections don’t move on the screen when you change Tempo or Time Signatures, but the time ruler will move (with Tempo changes) or the bar numbering will change (with Time Signature changes). When Timebase display is set to Time-Linear it locks the time ruler in place. Now only the bar numbering changes when you change the Time Signature, and everything but the time ruler moves when you change the song’s Tempo.

Makes sense?

It is possible to change the markers and arr track to time based rather than beats based. That should make them stay where they are irrespective of tempo changes.

 

[SwitchBack]

I was looking for that but couldn't find it. I think it will always be beats.

Something to look at is Sync Points. It doesn't lock markers or events in time but it allows you to move the sync point of events to a more convenient spot. Say the audio in an event has a climax which has to coincide with a specific frame in the video. Then you can first set the sync point in the event to that climax, then locate the frame and have the (sync point in the) event line up with the frame. Not exactly what you want but it may help.

NB. I just saw that the timebase of the entire marker track can be changed from beats to seconds (in the header of the marker track). Same for the Arranger track. Promising!

NBB. Yes, that works. You can toggle between beats and seconds depending on what you're doing. The markers/sections will stay or move accordingly.

 

[lokeyfly]

From my perspective, and what I was reading over my response, is......
Regarding the OP's subject of "How to lock music to a film for certain scenes?"
If tempo is changed at all (except after the video), there is no way to lock music to a film. Time signatures will work as needed. They'll will even vary and hold to a tempo change, only the OP is looking to lock to a film. Tempo on its own, will throw this out of timing. I'll repeat what I mentioned earlier. If you change the tempo (even at the bottom tempo field), the video will NOT alter. But the audio song length will vary. Just clarifying my own over worded earlier stuff.

 

[lokeyfly]

I never used this stuff (Arranger, Signature, and Tempo Tracks); so it took me two or so hours to make sense of it, including reading several different sections of the Fender Studio Pro 8 Reference Manual, but so what.

This is not difficult. The only confusing aspect is being unable to find the important information in one clearly documented place.

Please let the discussion continue, without definitions. Thank you.
This has to do with locking music to a film (IAW OP subject).
Thanks again.

 

[lokeyfly]

......... I want that 6/8 cue to happen at that exact moment in the scene no matter what I change before it.

Would be great to hear back from you so we can assist better.
What would clarify things
1. Your equipment, OS, version of Studio One/Pro

2. Do you have a stamped (locked or not) mp4 in the DAW, now? Because that WILL stay frozen, and slip from ANY audio tempo changes you insert. In other words, picture that clip remaining locked (anchored). Tempo will move the audio. The video will stay frozen while your tempo adjustments vary the length of the song. Video will not compensate. It simply cant.

3. As the guys mentioned, adjusting time signatures follow and align to the beat. Later time sigs will change based on earlier changes or inserts that will effect the timing of your video you're looking to sync to. That is why I ask if you have a video track on there now.
Your feedback at this point will help. Thanks!

 

[soundofdrums]

I was looking for that but couldn't find it. I think it will always be beats.

Something to look at is Sync Points. It doesn't lock markers or events in time but it allows you to move the sync point of events to a more convenient spot. Say the audio in an event has a climax which has to coincide with a specific frame in the video. Then you can first set the sync point in the event to that climax, then locate the frame and have the (sync point in the) event line up with the frame. Not exactly what you want but it may help.

NB. I just saw that the timebase of the entire marker track can be changed from beats to seconds (in the header of the marker track). Same for the Arranger track. Promising!

NBB. Yes, that works. You can toggle between beats and seconds depending on what you're doing. The markers/sections will stay or move accordingly.

Check it out...super useful little button for retaining their positions after tempo changes

 

[SwitchBack]

Yep, that's it

 

[Wolfger]

Is the what the OP wants to do?

No!
In your video there is a 6/8 "cue" happening at 8 secs.
The OP wants to change the tempo before the 6/8 and keep the 6/8 "cue" locked to the 8secs mark, which I think is not possible.

 

[Wolfger]

The 6/8 time signature "cue" happens at the 1st beat of the 5th measure, which using time as the units occurs at 8 seconds as you noted.

[NOTE: One of the important aspects of the solution I discovered is to use the measure or "bar" timeline of Fender Studio Pro 8 and the Cursor. There might one other timeline units that will work, but determining it is not my immediate interest since I have a working solution. ]

I made the requested change.

I changed the tempo before the 6/8 time signature "cue" as requested and made the changes a bit elaborate, as you can see in the YouTube video.

For documentation purposes, I called this requested change "Edit 2".

[NOTE: I kept the original 6/8 time signature "cue" as it was positioned correctly in the video timeline in the first video, which is at the 1st beat of the 5th measure and occurs at 8 seconds. ]

THOUGHTS

I am making a diligent effort to avoid describing everything in vast detail in this section; but regardless of whether anyone understands, (a) my remarks were on topic and (b) they explained and described the foundation for solving the apparent puzzle presented by the OP.

I will be glad to describe and explain everything if anyone is curious; but I will do it only by request and then probably in the Lounge, not in this topic.

I do not claim the solution is trivial, although once you understand the rules, it is easy; and for reference, (a) some of the rules are explained in the Fender Studio Pro 8 Reference Manual, although in my opinion there are errors as noted in my previous posts (mislabeled diagrams and incorrect English), but (b) other of the rules are not explained anywhere, which mapped to needing to infer them based on my extensive experience and expertise cutting, copying, splicing, and editing vocal audio clips for my old-time science fiction radio plays (currently 27 chapters, approximately 7 hours).

I might make a detailed video showing how to do it, as well, if anyone asks nicely in a respectful way.

Yet, in my natural AI Robot style of providing what I think are helpful analogies, metaphors, and similes relative to Computer Science and Digital Music Production, the high-level strategy for discovering the solution to this puzzle is to walk like an Egyptian but to think like a German.

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I appreciate you taking the time to write out all these explanations.
I guess the OP knows how to manipulate time signatures and tempo, otherwise he coudn´t even post the question.
Still there are no tools provided for doing what the OP wants and be exact, and that's what he wants:

"How do I go about "locking in" the durations? I want that 6/8 cue to happen at that exact moment in the scene no matter what I change before it."

Sure you can manipulate the tempo before a certain cue be guessing and trying as you did, but even then your 6/8 cue is off and not exact (it´s at 07.336 secs in your new video and not the exact same time).
The OP wants to lock a cue to a time sig. and tempo at 10 min and afterwards manipulate the tempo at a 5min cue to an exact tempo. Please show the tools/method/calculations in Studio Pro where you can achieve repeatable, reliable and exact results.
For example, there is a "tempo operations" tool in Logic Pro which would help with those tasks
(I´m not aware of any tool like this in Studio Pro):

Sure someone could figure out the math behind this, I can´t!

kind regards
Wolfger

 

[Wolfger]

I made a short video, maybe this is a solution, using the tempo mapping tool via command?:
Would be great, if the OP could chime in!!!
Anyway you have to live with the tempo changes before the 6/8 cue and how they influence the music before the 6/8 cue.

[youtube]

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[SwitchBack]

I would try with the audio event's Sync Point moved to the 6/8. See what happens then. The thing is that video frames are always frozen in time where audio tracks with musical content must be set to Timestretch to follow Tempo changes. So with tempo changes music will inevitably move wrt. the video frames. With the Sync Points and the length of the audio events you may be able to decide which point in an event stays in place when Tempo is tweaked. Time signatures will always be locked in with the beats, also because signature changes are only possible on the downbeats.

 

[Codester388]

Hey guys, sorry I went mia for a bit. I asked around on some composer forums too, and it seems the industry standard solution is to just have multiple projects for different cues. Thanks for all the help!

 

[SwitchBack]

At least you know now that some tools are in place, should you want to experiment a little further.

 

[Jemusic]

I am someone who used to produce music for documentaries and each video/TV program contained multiple cures. Most cues only go for 2 to 3 minutes max. You get and create them in any order and the timecode that a cue is based on depended where in the overall length of the program where that cue lies. So yes you create separate song file say in Fender Studio for each cue. Sometimes you may start with the opening cue but not always. I have done the ending first even.

These days you drag the video file into the session and if there is burned in timecode on the image then its easy to match the DAW software's SMPTE code to the burned in code. A new and fresh tempo/time sig track is created from the start frame of each cue. All hit points can be reached of course by manipulating the tempo track to put them in the right places in the bars of the music.

Near the end when they give you the complete full length movie file, you can insert that into a session and then line up all the mastered stereo cues in their correct start points and check them all for timing accuracy against the vision. If hit points are not perfect in a certain cue then you go back and open that up, and readjust etc and re-render/master and insert that into the final session again.

In post sessions when they are mixing dialogue, music and effects you give them the cues all separately and they line them up again. Its good to be around when they do that too. If you are doing this then in your video editing software you will have a full session with entire length of the vision and you will be laying cues in as you create them.