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[OutrageProductions]

I've been producing music for albums & film for nearly 50 years, and have concluded that; if you labor at something that you love, you'll never work a day in your life. Can it occasionally be a slog? Sure. Is it worth it in the end? Definitely.

But, that being said... there are a lot of neophytes that really should find a different hobby, cuz they haven't got the metal or the attention to detail that it takes to do it well. Just MHO.

 

[OutrageProductions]

I started with piano at age 6, drums & percussion in middle school, trumpet in HS and guitar from about 15. Studied music theory a lot, wanted to be a recording engineer in college, so I got advanced degrees in Electrical Engineering and Acoustics by 25, started working in real recording studios in 1976. Been at it ever since. The transition from engineer to producing was gradual and seemless. But this has been my living, and I don't regret a minute of it.
If it's a hobby for you, don't sweat the small stuff. Just have fun.
And maybe turn down the volume so you don't hurt yourself.

 

[hieroglyph]

it’s only ever been a hobby because i haven’t taken it seriously enough when i could have more than easily done so , the only thing i have done since young like you is sing since age 6 and writing lyrics snd songs in my head from age 10 , i didn't pick up keyboards until almost 20 and acoustic guitar at age 30 i'm still basic on both but adequate to write songs and thats all i wanted to do wuth those i dont event love guitar or piano tbh but i like them

but i think from my point of view mate i havent performed yet nearly enough , and thats a self esteem thing probably , im going to rectify that now my mind is getting better but tbh with you the real reason im contemplating this is i WANT to finish and record some songs preferably before i die lol ( won’t be doing it after ) , i am just thinking if computer music is for me or i should just use 4 track and drum machines and sound modules ( i have all that in seqtrak and zoom r4)

This thread resonates with me because I've spent so long writing songs and recording them that I put getting good at singing and playing guitar on the back burner. I feel I may never move on from recording hobbyist status. Or maybe serious hobbyist.

If I understand your question correctly, you are trying to decide if you should make electronic music with Studio One on your computer or making music with your zoom or seqtrak. I don't see why Studio One has to be reserved only for electronic loops. Why can't you use the zoom as a standalone interface by plugging it into your computer and recording inside S1 as opposed to recording to a device then importing the WAVs into S1 for mixing. Then again, I don't know the latency of a zoom.

I have an older 2 input zoom H2 but I'm not sure if those types of devices are as capable or durable as a regular dedicated audio interface. An interface has things that zoom doesn't have, like a MIDI input or low to no latency direct monitoring with two headphone outputs.

Like I said, I don't know if I understand your dilemma correctly. I have recorded dozens of original songs and never sold a cd. People like @OutrageProductions with actual industry knowledge and experience will probably be more helpful.

 

[John Vere]

Because I started in 1967 with a Sony portable cassette recorder with which my friends and me howled and bashed out classic garage band music I can qualify as someone who has recorded music as a hobby since it first became accessible to amateur musicians.

I still record music the same way! The quality has just improved and you can now fix stuff you don’t like. That’s about it.

If I use midi it’s only because it’s easier than buying beer for the band.

I’ll just comment on one thing. Midi or loops can be used in two ways.
Buy a musician who knows what they’re doing. They know what will happen when they choose the stuff and put it together.
Buy a non musicians who just want to see what happens if they put stuff together and hope for the best.
Hard sometimes to tell the difference unless you are a musician.

 

[John Vere]

Ah, I think you and I might be in the same situation. As I said I made recording using what in this day and age would be considered junk. But I enjoyed those recordings possibly way more than what I now create using pretty decent home studio equipment and a computer.

I have always used the audio part of a Daw just like a 8 track. The majority of my projects have 3 or 4 audio tracks and then midi instruments are just what represents a small band.

And it’s this stupid obsession with computers where you then attempt to make everything as perfect as possible. That is why I am seriously considering dusting off my Yamaha MD8 mini disk 8 track and dragging my old Japanese drum kit out of storage.

I put 14 of those perfectly made computer recordings on Distro Kid so they are now available to the whole world! But because I don’t know what to do about next, I have no clue if anyone is enjoying them. Last time I checked I had made $6. But they said they will keep that because I need to generate more. So much for that being my creative output for 10 years.

So just like you are thinking this winter Im going to Take some of those songs and redo them as what was called it “unplugged “. No midi allowed. If there’s any keyboards I’ll play it live on my Yamaha digital piano.

Another reason I have for ditching the computer is that Bandlab has taken away my Daw that I can use smoothly and easily because I understand all I need to work quickly and efficiently. Ive just had to switch to this Daw because of what happened to Sonar. But S1 is like Sonar and Cubase and not exactly user friendly.

So do I spend a year learning how to use it as well as I used Sonar? Or do I go back to 1998 and use all the hardware I have. I have enough mikes and instruments. I also have that same vintage Yamaha 01/v digital mixer that has great effects and compression. I know that gear snobs are cringing but the recording quality from that when I listen to it seems actually better! That’s because the performance was also better.

Im starting to think that it is better to record good performances that are not perfect instead of just recording a performance and then spending time with things like Melodyne making them perfect.
In the end Im only wishing to please myself. I have no intention of ever posting anything again. My family will find my recordings in the CD player in the car. Or maybe I’ll buy a Reel to Reel deck that uses 15 ips.

 

[John Vere]

You made me laugh when you said that you are in your 40’s and time is running out! Im just starting to say that and I’m in my 70’s. Your voice will change but as long as you live you will always be able to sing unless your hearing craps out.
My singing voice was at its peak when I was in my 60’s.

 

[John Vere]

what’s your plan john ?

My plan is in the new year I will turn off the computer.
I will set up the Yamaha 01/v and the MD8 recorder.
I will record live vocals and acoustic guitar using 4 tracks. That’s 3 mikes and Guitar DI.
I might even print the effects.
To that I will add Bass a that leaves me 3 tracks for percussion or drum kit. Im not a great drummer but at least it will be real.
I still have a Philips CD recording deck and a box of the CD-R discs. It can connect digital to my 01/v using SPDF. That will be my master. The Phillips is a dual deck you can make hi speed copies.
This was my typical setup for 1996-2005.

 

[Craig Anderton]

i have finished acoustic songs which i would call demos but when it comes to getting them in the computer and arranging them it’s a chore snd i've just never got any better at it.

What John Vere said

Okay. First things first - people listen to the music, not the sound, produciion, engineering, mic preamp, etc. I can name tons of artists from the pre-computer era whose recording quality would be considered sooooo unprofessional these days. No quantizing. No pitch correction. Muddy mixes. Distortion.

Yet they sold millions of copies, because people listened to the music.

So, step back. There's no law that this is an either/or situation. There's a guy over in England named Mark Longworth who records on a Korg mini-recorder IIRC. His songs are so good I don't care that they weren't recorded with 146 tracks of Pro Tools or whatever. I did a cover version of one of his songs, I liked it so much. Sure, my version had better sound quality. But the music wasn't any better.

My advice to people who play live is enjoy yourself, because then the audience will enjoy themselves. They don't care if you missed a chord or hit a bad note, as long as you were real and had fun. Having fun is contagious. The same holds true for recording. Do something you enjoy and there's no need to judge it. Play guitar and sing, then see what you can do with it in the computer. And don't forget, there's the Made in Studio One forum where supportive fellow travelers can give constructive feedback.

There was an attendee at one of my presentations who said his mixes never sounded any good. I listened and said "your voice needs about 2 dB of a broad boost around 3 kHz." I ran into him a year later, and he said as soon as he started doing that, everything fell in place because the voice sounded right. Weird.

You never know what will unblock you. To discover those things, ditch the "I should sound like this" or "I should do this" and just have fun and above all, experiment. Maybe you only need guitar and voice. It worked for an entire generation of folk singers.

Final comment: If something isn't working for you, don't force it. What has kept me happily playing, recording, and mixing music for decades is simply being sensitive to what I want to do, not what I think I should do. Mark Longworth, who I mentioned above, hit a creative drought with his songwriting.; So he started playing short instrumentals and really enjoyed it.

I hope this helps...

 

[Gerran]

I'm not in the same situation as you are. I don't consider myself a musician, I'm a live sound engineer, unable to work because of health issues, so I mix along with multi track recordings I have from live performances I recorded over the years. So I actually enjoy the fiddling and tinkering in Studio One, going for the perfect sound...

That being said, the quality of the performance always outshines the quality of the recording or mixing, in terms of the results. What I mean is that I can work with a sub-obtimal recording and make it better, but a sub-obtimal performance is nearly impossible to polish up.

If you have more joy in 'old fashioned' tape deck recording, you're bound to get a better performance using that method. You can always add tracks later on if you feel the song needs it, but you cannot add the pleasure of the performance during tracking.

 

[John Vere]

I think that what I am now capable of doing using a Daw is amazing. And I could just use a Daw like a tape recorder. But it’s all those little distractions that using a computer can toss at you just when you’re ready to hit record and go.

No the software needs updating or authorization and so on.
This is why I’m going to just see if the simplicity of a 8 track recording set up based on hardware will remove the distractions.
Once I have dialled in my input so it’s capturing what I’m after it will always be ready at the flip af the switch. At least Im hoping so.

For me the difference is also the entire headspace becomes different. When I record into my Daw I blow off things that I don’t like or the fact my bass has crappy sound. I will fix it it later with all those wonderful plugins I have.

When you record using hardware you don’t think like that. The sound and performance are mostly set in stone so you better get it right!

 

[MisterE]

Is it possible to reevaluate the choice to be your own recording engineer until you gain more confidence in arranging and performance? Are you sure it's always a good idea to handle every aspect of recording yourself? Are the other people's songs you love the most mixed and mastered by the artists themselves? Forgive me for answering for you, but, no, they're not, are they? It's actually okay to co-create with more technical types.

 

[whichi123]

I understand your situation; I went through a similar phase. Many inspirations would vanish while I was browsing various instruments and plugins. But I want to share an ancient Chinese proverb with you: "骐骥之跼躅，不如驽马之安步。" It roughly means that a fast and excellent horse that hesitates and wanders in place is not as good as a slow horse that moves forward steadily. Completion is more important than perfection, so please jot down your ideas as soon as possible, and finish them. Don't repeatedly choose different tones; use the simplest and most convenient tools. Use whatever is convenient for you. When you've done enough, you'll naturally know how to go back and refine those unfinished products.

 

[hieroglyph]

Yeh, I see where I misinterpreted what you were talking about.

I used Cakewalk Sonar 7 for over 15 years until I jumped ship recently like a lot of folks have done. It can be frustrating learning a new software after knowing a different one so well for so long. I understand the urge to try to tweak and fiddle with all the new stuff instead of focusing on the music.

My main point is that every new thing has a learning curve before it gets easy. Remember learning guitar before your callouses set in? Seemed harder then than it does now, eh? When my ADHD kicks in and I lose focus, that's when things get tiresome and tedious in my DAW because my multitasking goes haywire. When I only focus on the music and the record button (and input meters), everything feels smoother and more natural.

I don't think many of the issues in this thread are technical. I partly see it as commitment. How committed am I to finish a recording? Should I stay committed to learning a new software and work outside my comfort zone for a while? Or should I quit and go back to the old way? I can't answer these questions for other people but can hold myself accountable.

And then @MisterE nearly blew my mind because his suggestion that the "pros" don't record themselves really does make me want to re-evaluate whether I should record myself as an end product or simply consider everything I do as a demo.

Great thread. Much food for thought.

 

[Craig Anderton]

My main point is that every new thing has a learning curve before it gets easy.

Very true. But I've found that AI-assisted searches like Chat GPT are pure gold for not getting hung up by the learning curve. I recently needed to remember how to "strum" MIDI notes in S1 (it's not obvious!) and a few seconds later, I found how to do it.

found both songs i prefer the vocals by far on yours but i do prefer the simpler raw drums on the first one on that kind of song tbh but the drums are better mixed on your version
good cover mate

That kind of proves my point - the music holds up no matter what. A good song can be done in lots of different ways, and still come through.

how may kick samples ?

Someone at a workshop had just bought a program with 600 kick drum samples! He was overwhelmed and asked how to deal with it. I suggested he try the first one and if he liked it, to use it and stop right there. If he didn't like it, try the next one. As soon as he liked one, to just STOP. Sure, maybe you can find a "better" sound. But it's still a kick drum part, and all it really needs is a solid kick drum sound, not The Greatest Kick Drum Sound of All Time! Which everyone will ignore anyway because they're listening to the vocal

This is why I’m going to just see if the simplicity of a 8 track recording set up based on hardware will remove the distractions.

Some think that the method of committing to a sound because you recorded it and couldn't mess with it produced better music. I'm not sure the commitment is what made it better. I believe that creativity wants to move fast, and that was a faster way to record. I often use placeholder parts that aren't fabulous but they move the creative process along. When I'm done with the songwriting, then I go back and replace them if needed.

i’ve also noticed you do some good books ( just watched some of your sweet water interview i may get one in future maybe
any plans for psysical copies on amazon ?

No, for many reasons. The Studio One book includes 237 preset files and 229 audio examples, so having everything as a download makes sense. Also, all books are $19.95 and the updates are free. The cost of print would make free updates economically impossible. However, the books are standard PDF files so you can use Vistaprint UK or chains like Ryman or Protaprint to print you a copy. However, it will cost A LOT to print out 857 full-color pages.

Sorry for the interruption, I wanted to answer your question but I have to say I love this discussion. Much food for thought from many smart people.

 

[TimC340]

i'm probably being a bit negative here,but the question is….
“should some of us stay in our lanes ?

maybe in my case just record live because i see a lot of people enjoying producing but i just enjoy playing with all the vst and making a loop until my ears hurt and i sound like mr bean when i come off

what’s your thoughts ?

Absolutely not!!

For most of us, this is a hobby and it's supposed to be fun. Nobody is judging how you have your fun with this or any other software. Well, not many people are! Obviously there are some here for whom it's their living, and that gives a very different perspective; it's not acceptable to be not quite good enough at, say, mastering if you and your clients' income depends on the results being extremely high quality. But even those guys weren't always good at this stuff - they had to learn, and make mistakes along the way!

Like most of us, I'm sure, I have enough libraries to last well beyond the rest of my life without ever using a sound twice even if I recorded five songs a day. As Craig suggests, that's a recipe for paralysis and I've had to learn to accept it when a sound does the job even if I'm looking for something just slightly different (better...?). There are library managers which might help narrow down the choice, but really the listener is unlikely to worry about whether you found the exact sample that's perfect for the job on that exact Tuesday in March, on the slightly knackered speakers of a old Ford! On Wednesday, a different sample may have been better...

 

[SwitchBack]

End of the day a DAW can be just a recording tool too. If all the gimmicks in there are too much of a distraction then by all means use your Zoom or 8-track, but do plan ahead. If 'a song in 1 take' is the goal then that's fine. But if any editing is in the stars then DAWs are your friend (even if you're using only 0.5% of it all)

 

[TimC340]

Nothing wrong with using a Zoom device instead of a DAW - I had a Zoom R24 and it was a wonderful tool for getting ideas down quickly and with minimum fuss, and it was capable of very high-quality recordings. It even had a decent drum machine on board.

 

[John Vere]

I tend to ignore all the extra stuff that comes with Daw’s and not install it. But I learned quickly that Studio one relies on some of that for Presence to work.
I rarely venture into the rabbit hole of sound libraries being a person who is only interested in drums, Bass and traditional keyboards like B3 and Wurlitzers. I will goof around with old polysynths from time to time. I prefer to use those instead of strings. I always thought strings ruined a lot of pop music.
So it’s funny that in an attempt to eliminate hiring a dozen musicians the birth of some of our favourite synths was owed to trying to make string sounds.

 

[MisterE]

And then @MisterE nearly blew my mind because his suggestion that the "pros" don't record themselves really does make me want to re-evaluate whether I should record myself as an end product or simply consider everything I do as a demo.

The "pros" also benefit from including another brain in the equation—the producer.

Another angle you could look at this from is that the "ballpark" mixes you come up with are indeed a demo...while the right engineer can take the same files and elevate them to a finished "product." And some of those engineers just happen to be adept at adding their own tracks you might not have thought of that take the productions to a whole other level. And there are quite a few talented online (not to mention local) engineer/arrangers out there these days, meaning there's a lot of competition, so it's not prohibitively expensive to hire one.

I can only speak from my own experience, but that's pretty extensive, having been recording since the 70's and having been in every kind of situation from the simplest home studios to legendary "A-rooms," and here's my conclusion: there isn't a human capable of being great at all three major ingredients that go into recordings—the creative writing/arranging/production part, the dexterity part involving fingers and vocal chords that goes into the performances themselves, and the technical parts including editing/mixing/mastering. I've run across several humans who were great at two out of the three, and pretty darned good at the other, but never anyone who wouldn't have benefitted from having one or more other creative or technical brains around.

Lastly, I'd point out that it's only in the last decade or so when newbies started believing they had to do everything themselves (cause ads for DAWs promised them they could), or had it presented to them that they'd save money by doing everything themselves. That said, a lot of S1 users are hobbyists, and they do everything for fun simply cause they enjoy doing it. Hey, I'm not here to tell you there's anything wrong with that. Recording is in fact a great pastime. But if you really care about your tunes being the best they can be, it's time to entertain the idea of aligning with other brains who are more capable than you in certain areas.