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[MisterE]

The last point I'll make in this thread is that from what oldmancomebacktrail is saying and emoting, I'd bet he'd be a lot happier recording fewer songs to a high standard—with the aid of capable co-conspirators—than way more songs to an indifferent standard. Over and out, happy trails in recording land.

 

[Craig Anderton]

The "pros" also benefit from including another brain in the equation—the producer.

This gets into a major difference between how music used to be done in terms of how the brain works. Short form - our brain is a dual processing system and when you're working in one hemisphere, it's difficult to jump over to the other one and then return.

It used to be that the artist could stay in the right hemisphere and just concentrate on playing. The engineer stayed in the left hemisphere and made sure all the tech details were covered. The producer had the most difficult job, because it required integrating both hemispheres.

The corpus callosum, a nervous system super-highway, handles communications between the two hemispheres. Musicians typically have a more developed corpus callosum than the average person. Science-based studies support this. I believe it's because playing music draws skills from both hemispheres - you have to be inspired as you play, but you also need to think about chord shapes and deploy fine motor coordination.

I use this knowledge to optimize how I work. When I'm songwriting, I don't edit, I just play parts and let ones I don't like stay if they further the development of the overall song. My "real-time engineer" is having enough keyboard shortcuts and facility with Studio One that I can "engineer" myself pretty much instinctively, so it doesn't interfere with staying in the right brain. After the tracks are down, then I do my editing, which is a left-hemisphere engineer task.

For mixing, I try to make sure both hemispheres are firing. When you starting thinking along these lines for a division of labor, you may find it's easier to do solo projects. Additional info below.

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From a summay of various studies by Becky Yu, Hsinchu International School, Taiwan:

Numerous studies have demonstrated that long-term musical training leads to significant structural changes in the brains of musicians. For instance, research by Schlaug et al. (1995) revealed that the anterior portion of the corpus callosum is larger in musicians compared to non-musicians, suggesting enhanced interhemispheric communication necessary for complex motor tasks [1]. Schlaug et al. (2005) reported increased cerebellar volume in male musicians, reflecting microstructural changes due to early and ongoing practice of intricate finger sequences.

Gaser and Schlaug's (2003) voxel-based morphometry analysis showed increased gray matter volume in motor, auditory, and visuospatial areas of musicians' brains, supporting the idea that long-term skill acquisition leads to structural adaptations[2]. Bengtsson et al. (2005) used diffusion tensor imaging to demonstrate that extensive piano practice results in a more organized right posterior internal capsule in pianists, highlighting white matter plasticity during critical developmental periods[19]. Similarly, Han et al. (2009) found that pianists have higher gray matter density in regions associated with movement and better white matter integrity, suggesting that prolonged practice influences the brain's structural organization[3].

 

[MisterE]

I use this knowledge to optimize how I work. When I'm songwriting, I don't edit, I just play parts and let ones I don't like stay if they further the development of the overall song. My "real-time engineer" is having enough keyboard shortcuts and facility with Studio One that I can "engineer" myself pretty much instinctively, so it doesn't interfere with staying in the right brain. After the tracks are down, then I do my editing, which is a left-hemisphere engineer task.

Well, there's so much in this one paragraph alone, I'm lured back in Let's just say I agree with your basic premises, but feel compelled to chime in. Regarding writing and editing at the same time, as in not doing it, I completely agree on how counterproductive that is. However, while you mention editing—which, correct me if I'm wrong, but to me that means moving notes around or recording new ones till you're happy with a performance that's sung or played—I'd distinguish that from sweetening, which is reaching for all your EQ, compression, verb, delay, etc. tools to make that edited part sound better yet. For me, sweetening's the last thing I want to do when I'm struggling with, say, a guitar lead. Imagine there's a part you can almost play, you try slowing down the BPM, but it's still hard, and you're rethinking things...when then you notice you don't like the sound of the part. Now you've left one trouble area for another, and, more times than not, once you feel you've improved the tone, it's entirely possible that you've entirely lost the mood of the solo you couldn't quite play.

That said, you go on to explain that you've been doing this so long, you can sweeten and perform at the same time. Well, you've had a good three decades plus to perfect this technique. The op hasn't. I'm guessing, but I'm imaging that when you started out, you observed working situations involving engineer, producer, and artist before you tried your hand at all those skills yourself. I can't recommend observing someone else adept at doing what you want to learn to do highly enough.

It takes a long time to figure out how to wear one hat at a time when you're writing or recording most of a song's parts yourself. It takes a lot of self-discipline. It also takes daring to suck, and putting in the time investment to unsuck. The good news is that once you start proving to yourself you can suck and unsuck, you know you can do it even if you have to stand on your head every so often.

Regarding the workings of the brain discussion, while the information may be accurate, I'm not sure tuning into that is what's gonna jumpstart the op's recordings as much as looking into helpful co-conspirators, watching them in action if possible (remote will get the song done, but won't teach "how to fish" so the op can do it himself), and learning from them.

There's also the human ego's tendency to believe when you're struggling to figure out how to record songs to a standard you wish to reach that you're the only one who struggles, that it's somehow easier for everyone else, that people just start out and breeze through recordings. Those aren't helpful thoughts. Sure, some people are naturals at one of the aforementioned studio skills, but as previously concluded, no one skates through all of them without investing major effort.

 

[Craig Anderton]

However, while you mention editing—which, correct me if I'm wrong, but to me that means moving notes around or recording new ones till you're happy with a performance that's sung or played—I'd distinguish that from sweetening, which is reaching for all your EQ, compression, verb, delay, etc. tools to make that edited part sound better yet.

To be clear, what I mean by editing are things like cleaning up vocal parts (e.g., plosives, fricatives, breath noises, using gain envelopes to even out levels), moving pieces of songs around for the arrangement, cutting or attenuating amp noise between guitar phrases, any needed pitch correction, that sort of thing. For me, what you refer to as "sweetening" is part of my mixing process, which overlaps with production. At that point the tracks are pretty much done. I may need to play something or move notes around, but they're not really performances, more like fixes (e.g., "wow, how did I miss the note being out of tune on that guitar chord?" and punching the chord).

Regarding the workings of the brain discussion, while the information may be accurate, I'm not sure tuning into that is what's gonna jumpstart the op's recordings as much as looking into helpful co-conspirators, watching them in action if possible (remote will get the song done, but won't teach "how to fish" so the op can do it himself), and learning from them.

Yes! In fact I think one of the biggest losses of not having "big studios" is that makes it difficult for those starting out to be tape ops or sweep the floor or whatever while watching pros do their thing. Co-conspirators are great but the logistics of collaboration can be difficult, so people by necessity will need to spend some time working by themselves. When they do, I believe something as simple as not editing or cleaning up parts when writing a song helps avoid interrupting the creative flow by getting bogged down in left-brain activities. But, everyone has their own creative path. I can describe what works for me but that's not necessarily universal. I know plenty of people who mix while they track, it works for them.

(FWIW tangent: I've been looking into Sessionwire as a possible way to do remote collaboration. It looks promising.)

 

[MisterE]

I know plenty of people who mix while they track, it works for them.

So do I, but they put plenty of work into it (as in years if not decades) before it became second nature. And chances are they suspected they could do it because they already saw others do it with their own eyes and heard it with their own ears. And I've still never run across someone who mixes while they track who was also a great writer; pretty darned good maybe, but the best of the best writers tend to rework things constantly until they have something they're confident will stand the test of time. And it's going to be quite a challenge to get there if they're multitasking editing and sweetening at the same time.

We're veering a little off track here, as I'm talking about the best of the best experienced types and we're talking about the history of recording while the op is having a rough go simply starting out.

I'll make my second attempt to exit this thread by noting one of the main reasons why writers and listeners today seem stunned when they're presented with productions from the past is the shrinkage of the studio triumvirate—artist, engineer, producer—into a single entity entrusted with all three positions. It's a great way to save money and avoid other often-irritating humans, not necessarily a great way to achieve optimum results. For hobbyists out for fun, not optimum results, hey have at it, don't worry, be happy.

 

[MisterE]

Something else you could try is recording a cover; that way, you don't have to be emotionally invested in how wondrous your writing or performance is, you'd be free to experiment and get familiar with the process. Then, once you've proven to yourself that you can record a song, you could tackle your own stuff with a good deal more confidence.

 

[Craig Anderton]

MisterE's suggestion to do a cover is a good one. Whenever I need to reset, I do a cover. In fact, that's why I did the cover of Black Market Daydreams.

 

[MisterE]

thanks bud i appreciate your help i have a few covers that i play “ you and me by lifehouse and “ here i am by bryan adam’s so i may try one of those

my songs im writing are kinda slow 75-80pm
even though im more indie pop than ed sheeran i would say there folk ish strumming like that style

thank you

Just take your time and throw everything into it—acoustic guitar, electric guitar, VSTs, multiple vocals (even if it's just doubling the lead vocal), drums (real or VST), bass, and some keyboards (real or VST) and MIDI—that way, you'll have already tackled recording every classification of voice and instrument, so when you record your own tunes, you won't be breaking new technical ground that distracts from the writing, recording, and arranging. It's up to you whether you want to concern yourself with the sweetening as you go; I wouldn't, but I'm not you. I'd just get every sound "in the ballpark," then work on your sweetening chops, or, better yet, observe someone else who knows what they're doing and copy them. There's nothing wrong with being a copycat if you copy the right cat!

 

[John Vere]

If you hate programming bass parts then record them!
Audio to midi is a great tool.
It still will require some editing in the Piano Roll but the results can be a midi bass part that sounds real.
I started using this method at least 12 years ago.

 

[John Vere]

If you can play piano, even just minimal. You can play bass parts using a Bass VST like Ample P bass lite( free)
For me this is way less work than digging through 1,000 of loops. I have never gotten into loops. It forces you to compromise the sound you had in your head.

I was totally not a piano player but I bought a controller keyboard as it was really the only way I could see that I could use a computer to make music. Just get it best as you can and then fine tune it.

Because of how easy it is to edit midi I very quickly learned to record Bass, drums and simple keyboard parts. This was 40 years ago. Midi editing has become much easier now.

 

[John Vere]

i cannot play bass , i cannot play lead guitar
i mainly strum acoustic guitar and fingerpick a little bit and play some piano

Here's another solution that many people use. Auto generated Backing Tracks, No having to dig through loops the software does it for you.

Band in a Box- https://www.pgmusic.com/ List price was $130
Pro's- It can generate very high quality due to the fact it can use Real Tracks. These are not midi but samples. It can export both audio and GM midi.
Con's You get what you get and you have to export as audio not midi to carry on in your Daw. But you can set it up to use midi only but alas then it doesn't sound as good. It also has a steep learning curve.

Chord Pulse https://www.chordpulse.com/index.html is free but I paid for the upgrade that allows exporting Midi and you get more styles.
Pro's -- dead simple to use. Free or 30 euros. The full version can export GM midi files
Cons - really is the limited amount of styles available. But So far that hasn't been a problem for my type of standard music.

Jjazzlab https://www.jjazzlab.org/en/ Free,
Pro's Free no strings attached, has lots of styles, oriented at Jazz music but I found everything I wanted. It exports GM midi
Con's while not as complicated as Band in a Box it has a lot of features so it does have a learning curve,

In the end I don't use Band in a box because of the midi limitation. I find myself using Chord Pulse more than Jjazzlab because it is so simple.

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[OneBass]

i'm probably being a bit negative here,but the question is….
“should some of us stay in our lanes ?

maybe in my case just record live because i see a lot of people enjoying producing but i just enjoy playing with all the vst and making a loop until my ears hurt and i sound like mr bean when i come off

what’s your thoughts ?

I wouldn't necssarily "stay in your lane". Rather you should create/invent your own lane and even there have the flexibility to jump to a new lanes as your growth allows. Perhaps you need music engagement on a more human-to-human level.

For about a year now, I have been methodically working thru my “100/100 Project”. A personal project where I stem-remove the bass guitar from songs and replace it with my live bass recordings on my 4 string Fender. I then have a dozen or so musician friends that I send these bass overlays to for their constructive criticism and otherwise chit-chat of the song and my playing/mixing performance. Likewise, I comment and engage on any recordings they share.

The goal is to do this on 100 classic songs from the 60s/70s and 100 songs under the large umbrella of smooth jazz. This would include melodic new age, balearic, jazz influenced songs, ambient/chillout, down tempo electronica, atmospheric and world fusion.

Although I’m far from a pro, and this project will take years, I’m having a blast and for me it’s about fun, growth, and the journey, not necessarily the destination. I’ve “completed” about 17% of my 200 song goal and am always looking for intelligent and insightful musicians to add to my mailing/comment/discussion list. If you (or anyone) is interested in commenting on my work, send me your email. Of course, I'd be happy to comment on your's.

Who knows? This could lead to a rewarding collaboration as has happened in the past. In any case, do remain engaged in music.

So much good music . . . so little time.

 

[ianaeillo]

I know the thread has gotten away from this but

Last year I recorded a band that was exhausted with screens and editing and everything. They've had fair success prior but just wanted to...record.

I bought three ADAT machines from shop goodwill for $30 a piece and luckily, all three worked. Hooked them up to the console and recorded an album with no screens. It was...freeing. We spent way way way more time making sure everything sounded right going in and while some of the performances were to a printed click, the band had a significantly different feel than the demos. Though the playing wasn't really in this vein, the overall feel sounded more like an 80s new wave record than I expected, despite us not really pointing it in that direction. I was extremely proud of the record.

The label hated it and they are currently planning the re-making the record in Minneapolis with a bigger name producer who won't do stupid things like I did, but it was a really cool album and I'm glad we made it.

I cannot recommend enough moving outside of your comfort zone to make a record. Maybe nobody will like it, but it will help you moving forward.

 

[hieroglyph]

The industry of my day job has increased workload during the holiday season so I have been away from forums and social media in general.

I am now caught up on this thread and it is reaping a wealth of knowlege and music related philosophical discussion, thanks to the OP and everyone else. I would like to apologize for my post from last week. I am neuro divergent with a good dose of mental health issues. I was badly beaten over the tiniest petty things my entire childhood. As such, I still have to work hard not to be the bullied that became the bully. I often have awkward social interactions IRL and it takes a while for people to warm up to me if they stick around. I am sorry that my post came across as smug or condescending as that was not my intent. Sometimes the words just come out wrong, both online and IRL.