Are Daisy-Chained Virtual Instruments not Plugin Delay Compensated?

[FMN-Music]

FMN-Music, if you want to prove that a Midi Vst (Veloscaler) causes the problem then a comparison take without Veloscaler is needed.

I understand where you are coming from, but you need a VSTi "stand-in" that can put through Midi to another VSTi. Without that you can not realize the routing shown in the video. You can however swap out Veloscaler with any other VSTi, capable of sending out Midi, and get the same result.

 

[FMN-Music]

I will take your word on the matter, however would it be possible to use a different choice of numbers that can clearly show this is not a function of the project latency making the adjustment.

It would be good to have a definitive answer for the OP and others following this question.

Best regards to all.

The definitve answer is:
Yes, two VSTi's in serial configuration will not be properly Plugin Latency compensated. The second VSTi in line will get (or play) Midi notes late, the same amount of time as the songs entire plugin-induced latency.

 

[sintil8]

The definitve answer is:
Yes, two VSTi's in serial configuration will not be properly Plugin Latency compensated. The second VSTi in line will get (or play) Midi notes late, the same amount of time as the songs entire plugin-induced latency.

So you were not showing the in line DPC as that was never 500 milli sec's, that was the Melda device injecting latency on the Audio track.
Can you say what the inline latency of the Veloscaler and the sampler should be?
Is there a way of measuring that and also some method or calculation to verify it.
Or better still can you point me to an article or reference material, I can read. Many thanks if you can help.

Best regards.

 

[FMN-Music]

As shown in the beginning of the video, the songs total latency is 0 ms with the Utility Plugin disabled. So VeloScaler and Nuance Sampler both have zero latency. Therefor between the two there is no need for Delay Compensation and there should not be any. The fact that there is a unexpected delay between the two, when there is latency elsewhere in the song, points to a miscalculation of PDC.. a bug. Since it is a bug, there's probably not much reference material out there.

Studio One measures Plugin Latency and you can observe it per plugin in the expanded Performance Monitor.

 

[sintil8]

So if you run the Quantized Veloscaler and Nuance sampler test without the Audio track do the notes after recording line up exactly
when zoomed in fully, zooming in as far as SO1 will go?
If they do then the you could argue the PDC is correct.

This is where I get confused...
So, SO1 measures Plugin Latency, but by introducing a false positive into the test you are proving it's bugged.
The latency is not between the two in line channels and the recording is adjusting to the time you have established of 500 mil sec's.
If you offer up 250 mil' sec's would the notes be 1/8 late and so on.

I will sit back on this one and ask have you submitted a ticket to SO1 to alert them of your findings?

Kindest regards

 

[FMN-Music]

Yes, If i had 250 ms latency in my 120bpm song, the notes would have been 1/8th late and with no latency the notes would have had no delay.

These are not my findings. I did not submit a ticket. This has been discussed and reported numerous times. In my experience there is no point in providing a bug report about latency compensation issues, because presonus seems to recoil from even looking at it and will not touch the audio engine unless there are riots on the streets in front of HQ. Just remember the "Sidechain PDC wars" of version 4/5/6 in the old forum. So I will sit back on this as well

 

[Jens]

I (somewhat) recreated FMN-Music's setup (see video #10) and I can confirm that PDC for Midi daisy-chained instruments is broken. FMN-Music showed only S1's recording behavior but playback is broken as well. Any song latency changes requires manual fixing of every Midi daisy-chained track. (S1's NoteFx work fine.)

First track is the Midi Vst (free Chordz by CodeFN42)
Second track is the dependent instrument (Mai Tai)
Third track introduces a latency of 500ms (free MUtility by MeldaProductions, no strings attached!)
Fourth track is a plain instrument (Mai Tai)
Only the third track reports a latency.

The first and fourth track has identical Midi notes but the audio of the dependent Mai Tai is delayed by 500ms. If I move the Midi event of the first track to the second track then audio playback is in sync.

 

[FMN-Music]

There are five areas where PDC is broken:

- VSTis in serial

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- recording audio with latency inducing plugins on hardware input channels

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- latency inducing plugins in Groups, placed after a Sidechain Activated plugin

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"EDIT"
- VSTis with Latency in Multi Instruments

https://studiooneforum.com/attachments/latency-for-multi-instruments-png.1456/

"EDIT"

- Aux Channels linked to external Instruments - did not test this myself yet, just read about it
(https://studiooneforum.com/threads/delay-compensation-for-external-instruments.733/)

 

[TonalDynamics]

Yes, If i had 250 ms latency in my 120bpm song, the notes would have been 1/8th late and with no latency the notes would have had no delay.

These are not my findings. I did not submit a ticket. This has been discussed and reported numerous times. In my experience there is no point in providing a bug report about latency compensation issues, because presonus seems to recoil from even looking at it and will not touch the audio engine unless there are riots on the streets in front of HQ. Just remember the "Sidechain PDC wars" of version 4/5/6 in the old forum. So I will sit back on this as well

True enough my ally.

After all if they ignored us back on the 'official' forum, why would they suddenly start paying attention to us here on an unofficial one.

Presonus/S1 tickets have always felt like a one-way street to me. The one time I was (forced) to troubleshoot with someone from support it was some guy who knew basically nothing about the software and was 'relaying' things between me and the dev team.. with a response time of 2 days per ticket. I am naturally loathe to ever repeat such an experience again.

At this point they have ceased to focus on the countless robust features that already exist in the program in sore need of refinement and are focusing on what the new brass perceives to be flashy features that they think will attract prosumer/hobbyist marketshare.

 

[TonalDynamics]

The first and fourth track has identical Midi notes but the audio of the dependent Mai Tai is delayed by 500ms. If I move the Midi event of the first track to the second track then audio playback is in sync.

Ahh, that's interesting, in my case the delay is incurred by using the new 'direct monitor' feature feeding my controller into a MIDI note filter vsti which is feeding Pianoteq 6.

If I put the MIDI direclty on the Pianoteq track I still hear the delay.

 

[Jens]

Here is another puzzler for the latency experts:
If I add Diva to the project then Diva reports a 0.4 ms latency and the song latency is 0.4 ms.
But when I add another Diva and create a multi-instrument then the song latency is 0.0 ms.
How is that possible?

 

[TonalDynamics]

Here is another puzzler for the latency experts:
If I add Diva to the project then Diva reports a 0.4 ms latency and the song latency is 0.4 ms.
But when I add another Diva and create a multi-instrument then the song latency is 0.0 ms.
How is that possible?

An excellent addendum to the OP my fine fellow, but I'm afraid at this point this thread has become all stick and no carrot!
It's probably a long shot but @Lukas do you have any revelations to add to our daisy-chaining/PDC confusion here?
()

 

[Jens]

For contrast, here is PreSonus official statement (from the manual)

Automatic Plug-In Delay Compensation
Some plug-in effects inherently have some delay, or latency. [...] In Studio One Pro, this delay is managed with plug-in delay compensation through the entire audio path. There are no settings to manage, as this feature is completely automatic. The sync and timing of every Audio Channel in your Song are automatically maintained, no matter what processing is being used. The current total plug-in delay time is displayed in the left-side Transport, below the current sample rate.

 

[Lukas]

It's probably a long shot but @Lukas do you have any revelations to add to our daisy-chaining/PDC confusion here?
()

Not quite my field. Maybe @Ari has more insight.

 

[sintil8]

An excellent addendum to the OP my fine fellow, but I'm afraid at this point this thread has become all stick and no carrot!
It's probably a long shot but @Lukas do you have any revelations to add to our daisy-chaining/PDC confusion here?
()

Looking into the future, perhaps a wee bit of hope... if it can be done for hardware, is midi2 the answer for Vst's as well?
0.3 of a Milli sec is what we need. Cut to 4-00 min in the vid, a short discussion on latency.

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Regards to all.

 

[wbrewer]

Here is another puzzler for the latency experts:
If I add Diva to the project then Diva reports a 0.4 ms latency and the song latency is 0.4 ms.
But when I add another Diva and create a multi-instrument then the song latency is 0.0 ms.
How is that possible?
View attachment 1456

Wow this happens with Hive for me using Clap and VST3 plugins. If you add a 3rd vst outside of the multi, the .3 gets registered with the system. BTW its not possible that this setup actually creates "no latency" but it could be a display bug.

My insignificant take:

I have been using Studio One 7.2.2 alongside Ableton 12 and S1 is actually nice for certain things and the update has been cool. It would be nice if threads like this would get pinned to the forum so at least people know about them and can work around it. Ableton also has issues with PDC and plugins that require syncing to a specific clock when placed after another plugin with high latency. Because its known (even if Ableton is not very vocal about it) there is a work around which would take years for a beginner or amateur producer to figure out what was actually going on instead of thinking it was his shitty music production ability.

TLDR: This happens, could someone verify if it actually is resetting the songs total PDC as both are still registering latency individually?

 

[wbrewer]

Here is another puzzler for the latency experts:
If I add Diva to the project then Diva reports a 0.4 ms latency and the song latency is 0.4 ms.
But when I add another Diva and create a multi-instrument then the song latency is 0.0 ms.
How is that possible?
View attachment 1456

Can someone else verify this, has it been reported? This happens to me just like above in the picture.