Analog Delay adding 5dB in Studio One Pro8

[AndreasB]

Hey swarm intelligence!

I wanted to use the Analog Delay just as a simple, single e.g. 4ms delay of the signal (Feedback 0%, 100% wet, no Low- or High-Cut, Zero Boost or Motor....).
Just a bare delay setting.
Now I experienced, that the output level of the incoming signal is increased by 5dB.
The Analog Delay is simply an Insert.

But I wanted to use it with some routing and experiments on HAAS effect.
But these extra 5dB from the insert are making me wonder.
There is no other Tool or insert with just a simple clean delay.

 

[SwitchBack]

I don't think you can use Analog Delay like that, as it works more like a repetitive echo (not to be confused with a reverb which acts like a 'room'). So those echoes stack which may explain the boost. For a clean simple time delay you can use this one. See if that works

 

[soundofdrums]

Hey swarm intelligence!

I wanted to use the Analog Delay just as a simple, single e.g. 4ms delay of the signal (Feedback 0%, 100% wet, no Low- or High-Cut, Zero Boost or Motor....).
Just a bare delay setting.
Now I experienced, that the output level of the incoming signal is increased by 5dB.
The Analog Delay is simply an Insert.

But I wanted to use it with some routing and experiments on HAAS effect.
But these extra 5dB from the insert are making me wonder.
There is no other Tool or insert with just a simple clean delay.

You could use splitter and stick the delay on one side then turn it’s channel level down in the splitter by 5dB

 

[soundofdrums]

You could use splitter and stick the delay on one side then turn it’s channel level down in the splitter by 5dB

Or duplicate your track, pan the original left and the dup R then delay one of the events by 15ms or so to create the haas effect

 

[AndreasB]

You could use splitter and stick the delay on one side then turn it’s channel level down in the splitter by 5dB

I already did this and it works halfways useful. But these 5dB are just a measurement from me and I'm not having confidence about the root-cause and not sure if it depends on the input signal respectively spectrum.
Anyway thank You

 

[AndreasB]

I don't think you can use Analog Delay like that, as it works more like a repetitive echo (not to be confused with a reverb which acts like a 'room'). So those echoes stack which may explain the boost. For a clean simple time delay you can use this one. See if that works

Thanks for the tip to Voxengo Delay. This tool works fine with high accuracy.
But You need to pay attention of what You are doing with it.

Because I learned meanwhile, that the value You are setting in it, is not an additional delay to the signal chain,-
it's a SUBSTRACTION from it.
Vogengo Delay is mainly for COMPENBSATING delays in Your front end,- e.g. what You got from slow tools or far microphones.
So they first add a latency of 10.000 samples to the signal, which is compensated by the DAW automatically, by delaying the other signals in correspondence.
Then You can set the Milliseconds or samples in the Voxengo Delay plugin, which are then substracted from these 10.000 samples latency. But this will not be "told" to the DAW and thus not compensated automatic.
So the values You are setting there are NO delay. They are "speeding up" the signal relative to the other tracks.
I've checked this using the Splitter and the Scope plugin from S1.

 

[AndreasB]

I don't think you can use Analog Delay like that, as it works more like a repetitive echo (not to be confused with a reverb which acts like a 'room'). So those echoes stack which may explain the boost. For a clean simple time delay you can use this one. See if that works

...and last but not least:

There is NO TOOL in S2 Pro for a simple, dry, non vintage, no motor.... delay!
If I adjust the "Analog Delay" to pure delay without Feedback and Filters to "OFF", NO boost and all the other fancy things,
I would expect to get, what I want, and NO 5dB extra!
If it is set like this and 100% wet, there should be absolute no foldings of additions from the original dry signal and no foldings from the feedback.
Just the time shift of the original.
(sorry, when I'm a little pissed from searching so long for the root-cause and a solution now.)

 

[andgar]

There is a field in the inspector where you can adjust "delay" in either positive or negative direction. It will apply to the entire track. I actually prefer the Voxengo plugin as it's a reminder that something is going on. I don't really use the inspector so tend to find delay in there not particularly visible.

 

[Crossinger]

@AndreasB I think you misinterpret the purpose of Analog Delay. It is specifically designed for sound shaping and it is also having that “state space” logo for indicating that it has been modeled after analog circuitry.

What you are looking for is a plain technical delay and it seems that the Voxengo is a perfect fit for your needs.

 

[AndreasB]

There is a field in the inspector where you can adjust "delay" in either positive or negative direction. It will apply to the entire track. I actually prefer the Voxengo plugin as it's a reminder that something is going on. I don't really use the inspector so tend to find delay in there not particularly visible.

I know and You are right. It is hard to remember or to see this adjustment.
...and I don't know, if you can adjust just one channel of a stereo signal with it.

 

[SwitchBack]

Thanks for the tip to Voxengo Delay. This tool works fine with high accuracy.
But You need to pay attention of what You are doing with it.

Because I learned meanwhile, that the value You are setting in it, is not an additional delay to the signal chain,-
it's a SUBSTRACTION from it.
Vogengo Delay is mainly for COMPENBSATING delays in Your front end,- e.g. what You got from slow tools or far microphones.
So they first add a latency of 10.000 samples to the signal, which is compensated by the DAW automatically, by delaying the other signals in correspondence.
Then You can set the Milliseconds or samples in the Voxengo Delay plugin, which are then substracted from these 10.000 samples latency. But this will not be "told" to the DAW and thus not compensated automatic.
So the values You are setting there are NO delay. They are "speeding up" the signal relative to the other tracks.
I've checked this using the Splitter and the Scope plugin from S1.

I suggest that your Voxengo Sound Delay plug-in did not install properly, as I don't see any of the problems you describe. I opened another thread asking how automatic plug-in delay compensation works in S1/SP, to maybe understand what went wrong in your case.

 

[AndreasB]

Well, I don't think there is something wrong with my installation of S1 or the Voxengo Delay or the automatic plugin delay compensation. Maybe just a wrong understanding of the function of the plugin.
Try the following:
Insert a splitter to a stereo track.
(Best would be a pure Sinus signal stereo with 1...3kHz)
Set the splitter to channel split.
Insert a Voxengo Delay in to the left channel.
Insert the oszilloskope of S1 in to the Main or Post to see both channels (left and right).
Now adjust the Voxengo to only a few samples (5...15), so there is only a small phase shift of less than 90°.
We should now see a phase shift, where the left channel is "later" than the right channel and the audible position in the soundfield moves to the right speaker.
BUT IT IS THE OPPOSITE WAY ON THE OSCI AND AUDIBLE MOVING TO LEFT SPEAKER.

 

[soundofdrums]

I know and You are right. It is hard to remember or to see this adjustment.
...and I don't know, if you can adjust just one channel of a stereo signal with it.

You could probably make a macro that duplicates your original mono track and auto applies a short delay with the channel delay…I’ve not tried this so someone else might be able to chime in to confirm if delay amount is a macro-able parameter

 

[SwitchBack]

Well, I don't think there is something wrong with my installation of S1 or the Voxengo Delay or the automatic plugin delay compensation. Maybe just a wrong understanding of the function of the plugin.
Try the following:
Insert a splitter to a stereo track.
(Best would be a pure Sinus signal stereo with 1...3kHz)
Set the splitter to channel split.
Insert a Voxengo Delay in to the left channel.
Insert the oszilloskope of S1 in to the Main or Post to see both channels (left and right).
Now adjust the Voxengo to only a few samples (5...15), so there is only a small phase shift of less than 90°.
We should now see a phase shift, where the left channel is "later" than the right channel and the audible position in the soundfield moves to the right speaker.
BUT IT IS THE OPPOSITE WAY ON THE OSCI AND AUDIBLE MOVING TO LEFT SPEAKER.

All is fine here. Do make sure you set the Scope's trigger source to channel B (right channel) because that's your delay-free time reference. Or you can move the Voxengo plug-in to the right side and keep trigger on the left (which is now delay-free). You can pin the Scope and the Delay so you can see them both at the same time, when you change the delay settings.

 

[AndreasB]

All is fine here. Do make sure you set the Scope's trigger source to channel B (right channel) because that's your delay-free time reference. Or you can move the Voxengo plug-in to the right side and keep trigger on the left (which is now delay-free). You can pin the Scope and the Delay so you can see them both at the same time, when you change the delay settings.

I did it, but with the result that the "delay" is affecting the channel in a NEGATIVE direction. So the signal path with the Voxengo comes BEFORE the channel without the plug-in.
Here is a screenshots with the plugin in the left channel (green colour). The non-changed right channel is blue.
I reduced the amplitude by 5dB in the left channel as well, so You can distinguish the two channels by this as well. Same result is visible in the phase meter (also placed in the Main).

 

[SwitchBack]

That's weird as with your settings I get exactly what I'm expecting: green (left) 10 samples to the right of blue (right). Can you type "0" in both Voxengo Quick entry fields and then set the 10 samples delay again?

 

[AndreasB]

All is fine here. Do make sure you set the Scope's trigger source to channel B (right channel) because that's your delay-free time reference. Or you can move the Voxengo plug-in to the right side and keep trigger on the left (which is now delay-free). You can pin the Scope and the Delay so you can see them both at the same time, when you change the delay settings.

That's weird as with your settings I get exactly what I'm expecting: green (left) 10 samples to the right of blue (right). Can you type "0" in both Voxengo Quick entry fields and then set the 10 samples delay again?

I tried it with a complete new setup and it keeps the same with Quick entry as well. Quick entry results in the setting like expected.
In the picture below You can see the shift of left channel exactly 1 sample (at 44,1kHz) to the left (before the blue right channel.
I found some plug-in, which does it correct with the delay: Neutron 2 Mix Tab. There You can change the with of the stereo field but set delay in 0,01ms as well for left or right channel. This is correctly shifting it.

 

[AndreasB]

I tried it with a complete new setup and it keeps the same with Quick entry as well. Quick entry results in the setting like expected.
In the picture below You can see the shift of left channel exactly 1 sample (at 44,1kHz) to the left (before the blue right channel.
I found some plug-in, which does it correct with the delay: Neutron 2 Mix Tab. There You can change the with of the stereo field but set delay in 0,01ms as well for left or right channel. This is correctly shifting it.View attachment 3164

By the way,- the Voxengo delay has a latency of 226,8ms (according Studio One Pro).
This is exactly the maximum settable value of 9.999 samples in Voxengo "Delay".
Interesting is, that if setting the delay in milliseconds to maximum (99,99ms) and add delay with the samples, it does no more increase the "delay" above about 4.450 samples.
So You can't add a delay of more than about 200ms at 44,1kHz sample rate.
I use the Voxengo Latancy Delay v2.11 as VST3 (made in Russia )
I found following on their homepage as explanation, which fits my findings:

 

[AAV]

You are using the Latency Delay - it was recommended you try the Voxengo Sound Delay

 

[SwitchBack]

That's it! I missed that in the screen shots because the plug-ins look fairly similar. So yes, use Sound Delay instead.