Why are some controllers recognized as controlled parameters in Control Link and recorded twice?

[Aifu]

Hi. I'm not sure if this is a problem with Studio One, Native Instruments, or Ample Sound. I'll also post related questions in the forums for both, but I'd appreciate it if you have more experience and can help me solve my problem.

I'm using a Kontrol S61 mk3 keyboard to play and control Ample Sound Bass P in Studio One. With most VSTs, the expected result is that I push the controller, press the key, and Studio One records the corresponding automation and notes.

However, when I tried using the Pitch Bend and Modulation controllers, I found that when I touched the controller, it was recognized as the "controlled parameter." In the Control Link in the upper left corner, MIDI CC 1 and 129 appeared on the left (controlled parameter), even though they should normally be on the right.

This also happens with CCs 11 and 64.

In addition to this, the knobs on the Kontrol are assigned to CC14, 15, 16, etc., and due to the advanced integration between NI and S1, they are set to "Knob 1/2/...", so they are correctly recognized as controllers.

In my case, both the Kontrol control signal and the parameters on the VST plug-in seem to be recognized by the S1 as controlled parameters. Therefore, you can see that when I control the same controller, the S1 records the same parameter twice.

However, the VST recognizing two duplicate parameters only causes conflicts.

Other known information:
1. Spitfire's BBCSO has also had this issue, but it can be disabled by changing the settings in the plug-in;
2. Many other VSTs do not have this double recording issue;
3. The same plug-in and keyboard do not have this problem in Nuendo 11.
4. The four controllers (Pitchbend, Modulation, Expression, and Sustain) seem to be considered not "normal controllers" but rather have special functions. At least when these four controllers are touched, they appear on the left side, not the right side of the Control Link.
5. Ample Sound's technical support has reported this issue to the developers, but they can't promise a specific timeline for a fix.

I'd appreciate any feedback from those with similar devices and plug-ins to mine to help me figure out what's going on. Thank you so much!

 

[Aifu]

I can't submit a video here. Hopefully my screenshots can explain what I'm experiencing.

 

[sintil8]

Hiya,
I don't know if you have solved this?
In your first (png) pic there are two down arrows, click on the first and select the righ hand one/select your K.Board NI S61 and have a look at your instrument definition... You may have accidentally learned those controls.
If with the instrument definition window fully expanded move the mod wheel and P/Bend controllers, if any of the control knobs move then you should delete both of them.

see pic below after I learned my Mod wheel

Edit.
Went back and checked this further and yes it does create duplicates without having the control set as a learned controller for the Input device.
I hardly ever use those vst's and had never noticed that... wonder what is going on and is this normal?

Both of the controls (mod and Pitch/B) are defined controllers and it may be the Vst has a specific controller definition declared by the vst itself?

Hope that helps, best regards.

 

[Aifu]

Hiya,
I don't know if you have solved this?
In your first (png) pic there are two down arrows, click on the first and select the righ hand one/select your K.Board NI S61 and have a look at your instrument definition... You may have accidentally learned those controls.
If with the instrument definition window fully expanded move the mod wheel and P/Bend controllers, if any of the control knobs move then you should delete both of them.

see pic below after I learned my Mod wheel

Edit.
Went back and checked this further and yes it does create duplicates without having the control set as a learned controller for the Input device.
I hardly ever use those vst's and had never noticed that... wonder what is going on and is this normal?

Both of the controls (mod and Pitch/B) are defined controllers and it may be the Vst has a specific controller definition declared by the vst itself?

Hope that helps, best regards.

Hi!

Thanks for your answer. I compared Ample Sound with other VSTs and confirmed that it was Ample Sound that caused this issue because I never configured the mapping of these knobs.

Since NI and S1 have advanced integration, it is not a problem with MIDI Learn, and I have not mapped any functions. For KK S61, all controllers are named Knob or Button, not "Control". It can be understood that after being processed by S1, it has become a controller called "Knob/Button" instead of "MIDI CC xxx".

Of course, there is another piece of information: I tried to use the "focus" mode mapping yesterday. As long as I replaced CC01/11/PitchBend (129) with some other controllers (such as 14, 15, 16) in KK, I was finally able to bypass this problem because Ample Sound has not configured these controller numbers.

Of course, these focus mappings can also be saved in track presets. I am currently using it in this way, and I hope Ample Sound can solve this problem as soon as possible.

 

[sintil8]

Ah, good, it's not a painful workaround.

It looks to me as tho the Vst has declared the Mod wheel as doing double duty. The M-Vibrato and Modulation.
Without any notes if you record just the mod wheel there is a suble sound as tho' a string is rubbing against a fret.
So maybe this M-Vibrato is applying both a vibrato and a string noise?
It would allow for editing that duality as or in seperate items or control lanes.

So on one level it could make sense but on another if you are were saying it was conflicting in some some way.
What you did not mention was how this conflict was sounding or affecting the sound?

Anyway, it sounds as tho' you are OK now.

Take care, best regards.

 

[Aifu]

Ah, good, it's not a painful workaround.

It looks to me as tho the Vst has declared the Mod wheel as doing double duty. The M-Vibrato and Modulation.
Without any notes if you record just the mod wheel there is a suble sound as tho' a string is rubbing against a fret.
So maybe this M-Vibrato is applying both a vibrato and a string noise?
It would allow for editing that duality as or in seperate items or control lanes.

So on one level it could make sense but on another if you are were saying it was conflicting in some some way.
What you did not mention was how this conflict was sounding or affecting the sound?

Anyway, it sounds as tho' you are OK now.

Take care, best regards.

In fact, for Ample Sound Basses, MIDI CC 01 controls the vibrato, so the two control signals completely overlap and conflict.

My solution isn't perfect. To achieve "focused" control, I have to open the plug-in's interface to properly control it. However, opening any UI is quite laggy (even on my reasonably powerful computer), and I prefer to record without looking at the UI. So it's not perfect, but I can live with it until AS release an update.