Suno Studio

[Gray Wolf]

I imported stems from a demo song I wrote for a young lady many years ago into Suno Studio just to see what it would come up with. It came up with some interesting musical idea for the song. It didn't create anything that I'm not actually capable of playing, but it did do some things musically that never occurred to me when I wrote the song.

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P.S. Let's please not turn this thread into yet another debate about the evils of AI. If you don't like AI music apps, don't use them.

 

[TimC340]

Interesting - and very impressive. Would you bring this back into Studio One to finish it? Replace the Suno-generated parts with stuff you played yourself, or maybe change the sounds used to a library you prefer? (Written about 10 mins in, so you may have answered this later in the video!)

 

[Gray Wolf]

Intersting questions. I probably won't do any of that because the song is very old and I have no real purpose for updating it. I just used it here to see how well the "studio" thing works. But I do like some of the musical ideas it came up with.

 

[TonalDynamics]

P.S. Let's please not turn this thread into yet another debate about the evils of AI. If you don't like AI music apps, don't use them.

Sorry, 'Get out of jail free' cards don't exist on this subject, you're on the wrong side of town for that.

If you can blatantly advertise this garbage I can blatantly call you out on the obvious conflict of interest, i.e., waltzing onto a music production forum and nonchalantly promoting technologies which actively seek to threaten the livelihood/pastime/hobby of its users with cheap zero-effort knockoffs.

'Just don't use them' is an artificially superior hand-waving dismissal which does nothing to address the Orwellian theft-of-work and breach of consent that has already taken place to train the models, which continues to go unchecked while being funded by people like you who think they're above and beyond being called out for flaunting ethical indiscretions of same.

You can rationalize all you want, even if you ignore the 1,000 other moral/ethical arguments, at the end of the day you're subsidizing the efforts of technocratic corporate thieves operating on a scale unseen in human history who do nothing but fuck over artists, composers, producers, and the actual creatives responsible for bringing you artistic works.

So you go ahead and reserve the right to make these posts, and to generate sonic slop to your heart's content.
As a professional artist and producer I'll reserve the right to be righteously indignant about it, just like the illustrators were back in '22 when tech-bros trained a GAN model to imitate the style of Kim-Jung Gi (a generational illustration talent) and used it to generate and plaster the web with AI-slop immediately after he died as a 'tribute'.

'Stay in your lane', 'Get off my lawn', 'Not in my DAW', etc. etc., ad nauseam.

Thank you for listening.

P.S. Isn't it about time we do what a number of sensible forums have done and confine these AI posts to their own subforum?
It seems the only way to avoid inevitable conflict with all the corporate/tech-bro propaganda, troll-posts, ragebaiters, etc...

 

[Gray Wolf]

Wow. I'm not "advertising" anything. This is a music forum and that's a music tool.

• "The Lounge is the place for casual discussions related to music production - share ideas, workflows, or inspirations beyond specific brands"

I do hope you feel better.

To Lukas: Please lock this thread. I was hoping that people would simply allow those who enjoy discussing and exploring new tech to have some peace and not have others always inject their personal political rants into it. That was obviously wishful thinking on the Internet.

 

[Davey]

Wow. I'm not "advertising" anything. This is a music forum and that's a music tool. I play instruments and make music with all kinds of tools and I always enjoy exploring new technology.

• "The Lounge is the place for casual discussions related to music production - share ideas, workflows, or inspirations beyond specific brands"

I do hope you feel better.

To Lukas: Please lock this thread. I was hoping that people would simply allow those who enjoy discussing and exploring new tech to have some peace and not have others always inject their personal political rants into it. That was obviously wishful thinking on the Internet.

Don't let 'em grind ya down matey. Whilst I didn't expect complete radio silence from the AI-fearing lobby I am quite surprised at the strength of the response you got!

The thing is, AI music tools are here and they are not going to go away. In fact, they are already impressive and they are just getting started. Any DAW company that tries to ignore AI completely is unlikely to survive imo. We can choose to use AI or not.

As for Suno, I've stuffed a few things into it to see what comes out and, yes, it comes up with stuff that I would not have thought of (as well as plenty of cliched stuff). I've been particularly surprised at how it can add a coherent and musically-sensible bridge or middle 8. I'm excited to see where these tools go next. One thing I can guarantee is that more musicians are already using these tools than will ever admit to it!

Oh, and the earth is not flat.

 

[TimC340]

Whatever one’s views about AI in general, I don’t think it’s helpful to take out your frustrations on other forum users. It’s perfectly possible to state a point of view without vitriolic personal attacks.

The fact is, this software is out there and it’s being used by probably millions of hobbyist and professional creators. The issue of how the training material was sourced will never be concluded to the satisfaction of those dead against AI, but it’s kind of been neutralised by the recent court case that neutered Udio completely and saw Suno tied to Warner’s apron strings. Warner insist that, going forward, artists will have an opt-in for their material to be used, and will be compensated for doing so. How that’ll work out in practice has yet to be seen.

As for the wider issues of AI (energy and water consumption, etc), undoubtedly these will be dealt with as the technology gets more efficient - and it will be up to us to make sure our representatives hold that industry accountable for cleaning itself up. Whether that will be possible for those of you in the USA (where most of this stuff is based, I suspect) under current circumstances is moot, but times will change.

In the meantime, people will use these tools and we can’t brush them under the carpet. I have no doubt that every major studio has Suno on tap and is using it to generate ideas and help artists make stuff. Is this ‘corporatisation’? Yes, of course - but that ship sailed many years ago. Why should we not see what these tools can do?

I don’t have Suno, and I’m very unlikely to buy it (the reviews of Suno Studio are not flattering!) as I enjoy the process of making my own stuff. And anyway the majority of the music I deal with is choral covers mock-ups for my choir, so it has no relevance in that context! But I’m interested to see what it can do.

 

[Lukas]

@TonalDynamics

This forum is meant for discussing tools, workflows, and user experiences - including topics some members may personally disagree with, such as AI-based tools.

Critical opinions are welcome. However, turning threads into general ideological debates, lecturing other members, or derailing discussions from the original topic is not acceptable.

Please keep discussions factual, respectful, and on topic. Future posts that escalate the tone or ignore these guidelines may be moderated.

 

[TonalDynamics]

This forum is meant for discussing tools, workflows, and user experiences - including topics some members may personally disagree with, such as AI-based tools.

Of course, but why not just make a dedicated subforum for it?

It worked wonders for VIC, for both advocates of AI and people like me who are justifiably indignant about its many abuses upon the creatives I rub shoulders with every day.

I and the latter group simply avoid that subforum and our experience on the site is 10 times better as a result.

This conflict is only going to get worse, it's not me and Graywolf, it's an impending war between big tech and creatives of all fields over sovereignty of work, image, and identity.

@Gray Wolf Re-reading my post something occurs to me... none of it was intended for you. It was me using you as a catalyst to vent my frustrations. I stand by my assertions, but aiming it 'at' you rather than 'by' you was not the correct approach. When I think about big tech stealing millions of songs to build a product they claim as their own work something snaps, because I've worked in this industry most of my life. I am sorry you got caught in the crossfire of my emotional attachment to all of this.



Anyways, my recommendation for a subforum is on the books... I'll show myself out.

 

[Lukas]

I just avoid that subforum and my experience on the site is 10 times better as a result.

I don't see much difference between avoiding a subforum and choosing not to engage in a specific thread - especially when the OP explicitly asked not to turn this into a general moral debate about generative AI. Not every disagreement requires a technical solution.

For now, please keep this thread focused on sharing experiences with the tool.

Anyways, my recommendation for a subforum is on the books... I'll show myself out.

We'll discuss the idea of a dedicated subforum. Personally, I'm not a fan of creating additional subforums with low expected activity (see Notion forum).

 

[TimC340]

I'm sorry if I contributed to the instant thread drift! I think it's pretty obvious that I was interested in Gray Wolf's efforts and fascinated by the results.

 

[Lukas]

I think it's pretty obvious that I was interested in Gray Wolf's efforts and fascinated by the results.

It is.

 

[Craig Anderton]

At this point, I feel AI is too nuanced to fit neatly into "pro" or "con." I'm very happy to see hobbyists do more with music than just stream it. Programs like Suno may be the "gateway drug" that grows the population of musicians, similarly to how DJs started to learn instruments. But I'm not happy to see the death of copyright, coupled with the normalization of computer-augmented piracy.

I believe there will be solutions that can accommodate the needs of hobbyists and musicians with limited skill sets (remember, algorithmic composition existed long before AI), as well as the rights of composers to determine how, and who by, their work may be copied. We'll figure it out.

I was once asked to define the difference between AI-generated music and human-composed music. I said "some people have sex, some people make love. They seem similar, but they're a different dynamic with different causes and different results."

Now, to return to the original subject matter, I think an interesting experiment would be to see if it's possible to create a cover song that is clearly recognized as being based on a specific song, but solely by using text prompts with no audio cues.

 

[Davey]

At this point, I feel AI is too nuanced to fit neatly into "pro" or "con." I'm very happy to see hobbyists do more with music than just stream it. Programs like Suno may be the "gateway drug" that grows the population of musicians, similarly to how DJs started to learn instruments. But I'm not happy to see the death of copyright, coupled with the normalization of computer-augmented piracy.

I believe there will be solutions that can accommodate the needs of hobbyists and musicians with limited skill sets (remember, algorithmic composition existed long before AI), as well as the rights of composers to determine how, and who by, their work may be copied. We'll figure it out.

I was once asked to define the difference between AI-generated music and human-composed music. I said "some people have sex, some people make love. They seem similar, but they're a different dynamic with different causes and different results."

Now, to return to the original subject matter, I think an interesting experiment would be to see if it's possible to create a cover song that is clearly recognized as being based on a specific song, but solely by using text prompts with no audio cues.

I think we just need to take stock of where AI is and of where it can take us.

Clearly a one button "make me a song" thing undermines the art of music, but it might suffice for some situations and if you enjoy that it's fine.

But imagine a world where you have a fairly decent song but feel it needs a bit more. If you are very lucky you'll have a circle of talented musician friends who are happy to contribute but most of us don't have that so maybe an "AI buddy" can fill that role. "AI buddy, suggest ways to improve this chorus".

You need to view this from the reality that many, many modern pop hits are written by a team of people, often 5 or 6 folks, including someone who specialises solely in "toplining". This stuff goes back to Motown and even earlier. And after the song is written it is recorded, produced and mastered by professionals who specialise in that stuff. We can aim to match that but it's unlikely we'll get there.

At its best, AI can democratise that. At its worst it can be dire. It's up to us to cherry pick the best bits. Humans are still in charge.

But, also, it can be stupidly and ridiculously fun. A month ago I made a Christmas album using only Suno and the lyrics from a Christmas song I made several decades ago (4 track cassette portastudio!) It's a song that my wife hates, because the hook is "I don't like Christmas". But with just the lyrics and a one or two word prompt I ended up with an album of about 12 songs all in completely different styles. Pop Punk, Calypso, Modern R&B, Eurovision, Reggae, Drum & Bass, 70's Rock, Techno, 90's Metal etc.
It's my lyrics but it's not my music but it made me and my wife chuckle and there were more than a few bits that made me think "ooh, nice phrasing". AI is here and it can be useful.

And a quick note to Craig. Cover versions are not possible in stuff like Suno because it recognises the copyrighted lyrics. I only learned that when I tried to get it to make a version of "Daisy, Daisy" for a different thread on this forum. I had to mangle the lyrics to get it accepted. The resulting song was actually quite hooky.

As usual, the law will lag quite along way behind the technology.

 

[Gray Wolf]

I suppose this discussion was inevitable but I do appreciate the tone taking a more civil turn.

There are certainly uses for generative AI in music that don't involve the commonly used red herring of 'limited skills', but there's no point in me repeating those scenarios ad infinitum. Of course, there are lots of people out there with limited musical skills which is partly why Studio One and every other DAW comes with thousands of loops.

Thinking back over the years, I do recall some residing on high horses commonly calling loops "other people's music" to denigrate the people using them. It actually wouldn't surprise me at all if some people selling loops are also using AI for some of that now.

To expand on what Davey said above: It doesn't rip copyrights, it emulates musical styles. There is certainly lots of room for disagreement on how well it actually does that, the quality of the output, but factually speaking that's all it's doing. Obviously, computers can learn and assemble learned knowledge in different useful ways much faster than humans.

Example below using ChatGPT to generate a prompt.

• "Make a suno-safe prompt for a backing track in the style of Average White Band"
• "Below is a Suno-safe backing track prompt that captures the feel and era associated with classic 1970s funk-soul bands without copying melodies, lyrics, or arrangements from any specific artist."

Instrumental funk-soul backing track inspired by 1970s British-American funk bands. Tight rhythm section with warm, syncopated bass guitar, clean wah-tinged rhythm guitar, and steady pocket drums. Prominent brass section featuring punchy trumpets and trombones playing short stabs, call-and-response riffs, and smooth unison lines. Laid-back but driving groove at a mid-tempo funk pace. Polished analog sound, dry drums, rich horn harmonies, and a confident, classy vibe suitable for vocals or solos. No vocals.

 

[Craig Anderton]

There are certainly uses for generative AI in music that don't involve the commonly used red herring of 'limited skills'

It's not a red herring that pulls attention away from the real issue. There are hobbyists who simply don't have the skill of playing a musical instrument. With AI, they are able to play with music on a level that would not be possible otherwise. There are musicians who don't have the skill set to generate complete multitrack arrangements because their focus is on a particular instrument. Those are two of the main issues involving programs like Suno. Identifying them doesn't mean disapproval, any more than identifying that someone is using a sample library indicates disapproval.

To my way of thinking, those are relatively benign applications.

 

[SwitchBack]

Also note that we're still getting acquainted with what AI can do for us, bringing the Law of the Hammer to mind. Eventually the customer driven music industry will work out where AI can be an added value, and where not.