Stuck with a clipping track...

[TimC340]

Mixing into a limiter is a valid technique, and it's one that the guys at Mastering.com actively teach - partly to avoid this issue of the transfer of a 'hot' mix from the digital to the analogue regime when auditioning pre-mastering.

It's worth studying the science of metering to help understand how it's measured and what it's measuring. It isn't a difficult concept, but it can be confusing in practise.

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

Mixing into a limiter is a valid technique, and it's one that the guys at Matering.com actively teach - partly to avoid this issue of the transfer of a 'hot' mix from the digital to the analogue regime when auditioning pre-mastering.

It's worth studying the science of metering to help understand how it's measured and what it's measuring. It isn't a difficult concept, but it can be confusing in practise.

But isn't the K-Metering a good method/help to prevent that? I mean does mixing into a limiter on the main out not change the whole mix a bit?

 

[TimC340]

Their justification is partly avoiding the hot mix issue, but it's also so that you can judge roughly how your mix is going to sound when mastered - and acknowledges the reality that most recorded material is likely to be mastered by the artist these days.

Any modern music is going to go into a brickwall limiter in mastering. Any effect that has on your sound needs to be taken into account before you get to that point, particularly if it's going to be mastered by a third party. You might as well hear it before it's irrecoverable!

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

Their justification is partly avoiding the hot mix issue, but it's also so that you can judge roughly how your mix is going to sound when mastered

Does that depend on the genre, or is it more a matter of personal preference?

 

[SwitchBack]

The K-metering system is all about the loudness range of the (final) mix, to make it suitable for the intended listening conditions: Big auditoriums and concert halls can deal with a greater difference between quiet and loud than say your car stereo with all the surrounding noise. The different K-scales cater for these different intended uses, helping you to keep enough but not too much room above 'normal level' for the loud parts.

Clipping (lights) is all about (peaks in) the signal trying to go beyond a technical limit. All audio outputs have a maximum achievable output value/voltage and so do most of the digital export formats. Trying to go beyond these limits will distort the output signal with sometimes damaging results (for equipment and ears) so it must be avoided at all times. Limiters allow you to insert a limit below the technical limit to prevent the signal from 'going over'. It is a safety net but it can be used as an effect too, to get the signal distortion without the risk of getting into unpredictable technical clipping area. To see how close you are to clipping you need a peak meter, a meter that 'lingers' on the peaks of the signal no matter how narrow they are. K-meters sometimes have a peak indicator too but it is not part of the K-system.

VU-meters are neither. VU-meters are ballistic meters from when everything was analog. They give a mixed indication of how loud and lively a signal is, and with experience they are helpful for dialing in mixes. But VU-meters are neither loudness meters like the K-meters nor proper peak meters, and not the right tool to avoid clipping. In the analog days clipping was something gradual and rather benign, and mostly judged not by meter but by ear. But digital clipping is a cliff's edge, and when you hear it it's too late.

 

[tulamide]

That's a very good summary. Just for completeness, the modern descendant of K-metering is LUFS-metering, as it is specifically designed for digital realms with 0 LUFS equal to 0 dBFS, the absolute upper limit when going out to the analog realm. LUFS metering works even without calbrating your monitor speakers (K-metering does not) and the K-weighted analysis (has nothing to do with Katz) of the source material imitates a human ear quite well.

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

The K-metering system is all about the loudness range of the (final) mix, to make it suitable for the intended listening conditions: Big auditoriums and concert halls can deal with a greater difference between quiet and loud than say your car stereo with all the surrounding noise. The different K-scales cater for these different intended uses, helping you to keep enough but not too much room above 'normal level' for the loud parts.

For me this was a helpful tip years back in time from the community here in the old forum and worked well for me to get more consistent.
I was just wondering about mixing into a Limiter as a teaching practice. Sometimes i use one to squash drums into it, or a sound that needs it, but mixing into one on the Main-Out is the thing i avoid cause it should be the last thing in the chain and the last thing to work on in the mastering phase, I always thought. I only had one on my Main-Out when i was´nt knowing enough about what i`m doing.

VU-Meter i use only to let the Kick hits at 0 and the Sub around -6. But i`m still unsure whith plugin emulations that needs to be leveled at -18dbfs. Is there maybe a list of analogue-plugin-emulations where you can find the informations? Some brand their plugs and say true analgoue but you find no information about. Do you know some?

 

[John Vere]

I might have a solution but it involves having Wave Lab.

I recorded two people singing into one condenser Mike and at one point they started clapping their hands!!
I had to stop them as it had pushed the meter into the red. I made them step back a little and turned the gain down about 5db. I also warned them and suggested that they record the clapping later. Nope. They said it was part of the live recording that they were going for.

Sure enough what I had was a track that during the clapping was dangerously close to peaking.

So this results in the overall track is way too quiet. So of course I figured that simply putting a fast attack limiter would be the solution.
Nope. I tried just about every limiter and compressor I had.
This caused severe pumping or worse at even the fastest attack and release rates.

I have use WaveLab since version 3 and it now has this advanced Loudness tool that I often use for my video tracks and other important files.
Dead simple. Set your LUFS and the peak limit. Press a button and the wave file will be exactly what you asked for!
So I use this tool and it worked perfectly after I adjusted the settings a few times.
The vocals ended up at 17 LUFS sand peak at -1.5 db. The section with the clapping is mixed in perfectly with the compression being actually cool sounding.

So first thing I would try would be to drag the track from your Daw into WaveLab. Process it and save it and bring it back.
Im sure WaveLab is just using standard limiter and compression but I have no clue why it actually works! It’s just more skilled and smarter than me I guess. Oh I only have Elements version. Not the pro.

 

[SwitchBack]

For me this was a helpful tip years back in time from the community here in the old forum and worked well for me to get more consistent.
I was just wondering about mixing into a Limiter as a teaching practice. Sometimes i use one to squash drums into it, or a sound that needs it, but mixing into one on the Main-Out is the thing i avoid cause it should be the last thing in the chain and the last thing to work on in the mastering phase, I always thought. I only had one on my Main-Out when i was´nt knowing enough about what i`m doing.

VU-Meter i use only to let the Kick hits at 0 and the Sub around -6. But i`m still unsure whith plugin emulations that needs to be leveled at -18dbfs. Is there maybe a list of analogue-plugin-emulations where you can find the informations? Some brand their plugs and say true analgoue but you find no information about. Do you know some?

Slapping on a limiter to make the final mix 'fit under the bridge' is a rather crude remedy. So my guess is that 'mixing into the limiter' has the limiter sit on the output from the start, using it both as a limiter and as a clipping indicator. Too much limiting is then a reason to re-visit the mix and the individual tracks and buses to find the culprit. It is better to remove offending peaks as early as possible to avoid everything being given the same close shave.

Mastering plugins kind of have to do the close shave too for not having access to the individual tracks and buses. They can be very clever by compressing and limiting separate frequency ranges but transparency of the mix may suffer nonetheless. Bad mix = bad master.

 

[Jemusic]

VU meters (especially real ones that is ) are excellent at avoiding clipping. Yes they come from an earlier age but they are just as useful in modern digital recording technology also.

If you set a VU meter to something like -18 or even -20 dB FS showing 0 dB VU then for nearly every type of signal you will never have any clipping issues if you set the VU's to be showing 0 dB VU on the way in and adjusting your tracks accordingly before mixing. After all the digital clipping level is 18 or 20 dB above that. Chances of clipping are almost virtually nill. (I never see a red clipping light anywhere in any of my sessions)

Peak meters come into their own with very transient sounds eg individual drum sounds. They are fast and very useful also. The VU's are too slow to tell you anything with these types of signals. So use the peak meters to ensure the drum hits are not clipping anywhere. Then by the time you put all the drum sounds onto a bus you can actually put a VU on that bus too because the composite sound will actually move a VU meter nicely.

VU's are great on all tracks and buses and especially the final mix and they are also extremely useful in mastering situations also. A well mastered track moves a VU meter ballistic in a certain way. The ballistics of the meter can tell you so much about how wild a track is and how nicely things can change when you start using compression the right way. They tell you a lot. It takes practice and skill to be able to really read a VU mater ballistic. In fact VU meters are great in every part of your signal chain.

I must confess I do have very expensive real hardware meters and they are exceptional compared to software VU meters. The Waves VU is one of the closest to the real deal though. I am sure the software meters must be getting better all the time just like the analog synth emulations are now starting to sound identical to the hardware.

 

[SwitchBack]

Hardware VU meters are beautiful instruments, but used with a DAW they always come after a DAC. So with clipping the interface hardware limits the signal before it reaches the meter. Setting the reference level low is acceptable in the mixing stages (where the DAW's FP arithmetic prevents clipping distortion anyway) but the final mix will have to be louder to 'compete' with commercial productions. So in final mixing and mastering you still need a proper peak meter and/or a limiter to catch the peaks the VU meter won't. And with what I wrote before (catching peaks early) you want to use that peak meter and/or limiter during mixing too.

 

[Vocalpoint]

The Waves VU is one of the closest to the real deal though. I am sure the software meters must be getting better all the time just like the analog synth emulations are now starting to sound identical to the hardware.

Klanghelm VUMT is all I use here - every mix, every project. As close to the real thing as anything I have found in years of searching.

VP

 

[SwitchBack]

I might have a solution but it involves having Wave Lab.

I recorded two people singing into one condenser Mike and at one point they started clapping their hands!!
I had to stop them as it had pushed the meter into the red. I made them step back a little and turned the gain down about 5db. I also warned them and suggested that they record the clapping later. Nope. They said it was part of the live recording that they were going for.

Sure enough what I had was a track that during the clapping was dangerously close to peaking.

So this results in the overall track is way too quiet. So of course I figured that simply putting a fast attack limiter would be the solution.
Nope. I tried just about every limiter and compressor I had.
This caused severe pumping or worse at even the fastest attack and release rates.

I have use WaveLab since version 3 and it now has this advanced Loudness tool that I often use for my video tracks and other important files.
Dead simple. Set your LUFS and the peak limit. Press a button and the wave file will be exactly what you asked for!
So I use this tool and it worked perfectly after I adjusted the settings a few times.
The vocals ended up at 17 LUFS sand peak at -1.5 db. The section with the clapping is mixed in perfectly with the compression being actually cool sounding.

So first thing I would try would be to drag the track from your Daw into WaveLab. Process it and save it and bring it back.
Im sure WaveLab is just using standard limiter and compression but I have no clue why it actually works! It’s just more skilled and smarter than me I guess. Oh I only have Elements version. Not the pro.

That's about the worst situation you can have. It may have been better to have them sing closer to the mic and lower their hands. Depending on the mic (omni, cardioid) the hands would be off-axis and less present. Maybe an extra mic on the hands for a cleaner recording of the clapping?

Anyway, have you tried Moises stem separation? It can do remarkable things with 'polluted' recordings. At the very least it gives you a few extra tracks for playing with filtering and side-chaining.

 

[Grace de Richebourg]

No trick possible. Just follow the rules.

On a single track level - no track can ever peak higher that 0.0dfFS - or the clip lights will come on.
On the mix level - the sum of all tracks will determine the overall level of the Main Out. If that light is coming on - you mau need to adjust many tracks to the overall mix down below 0.0 dbFS



Me personally - I use a VU meter on a special Mix Buss that I set up into each session and I completely ignore ALL track meters in Studio Pro.

My VU meter is calibrated where -18dbFS (on a single track) = 0.0 VU on the VU meter. Then I simply adjust my individual track channels to be output somewhere between -7VU and 0.0 VU. Some "overs" on the VU (like for drums etc are just fine too.

Mixing via VU is a much more enjoyable experience. Once every track is dialled in (via VU meter) the track practically mixes itself. And no clipping is ever possible since all my tracks (say in a 24 track session) will usually all be down around -10 on the channel strips.

Been doing it this way for years.

VP

Thanks a lot for the info !
But to be honest as you may see im very bad in term of sound engineering so i dont even understand how it is handier to use your klangheim.

Two questions;

Is S1 Level Meter reliable or does it show unaccurate measurements please ?
Does someone know if one can configure (hence make some change) the litlle plugin preview on each strip channel please ?

 

[John Vere]

The meter is very accurate but it only shows peak level. Peak level can be maxed out but loudness is measured in RMS or LUFS. That is a totally different level than peak.
There’s lots of 3rd party plugins that measure Loudness like the YouLean loudness meter.

Percussion as in my example of hand clapping can create maximum peak levels but the loudness is not very high.
I won’t try to explain as you have mentioned you are not an audio engineer but generally speaking, to lower peak level and raise the loudness we use compression and limiting. And that is why I mentioned that WaveLab, as an example, can perform this automatically with out you having to understand the theory behind it!
Im pretty advanced in my knowledge of using dynamic processing effects but I was getting nowhere with my problem. WaveLab is smarter than me. Im sure there are other tools available as well.
I have tried a few limiters that allow you to push the input but at a very early stage it just trashed the audio.

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

The meter is very accurate but it only shows peak level. Peak level can be maxed out but loudness is measured in RMS or LUFS. That is a totally different level than peak.

No, the Level Meter inside FSP8 can be far more configured to than just simple RMS/Peak.

 

[John Vere]

Thanks for the clarification. I didn’t know that you could do this. Cool.

How to View LUFS in Studio One

• • Project Page (EBU R128 Meter):
    In the Studio One Project page, the built-in level meters support the EBU R128 standard, which provides real-time and integrated readings in LUFS. You can view short-term loudness, momentary loudness, and overall integrated LUFS values directly from the meter display on the right-hand side. [1]
  • Mix Page (Level Meter Plugin):
    On the Song or Mix page, you can drag the stock Level Meter plugin onto your main output channel (preferably post-fader or after your final limiter). Set the meter mode to R 128, make sure LUFS is selected, and expand the micro or window view for continuous monitoring. [1, 2]
  • Export / Digital Release Target Loudness:
    When exporting a mix or preparing a digital release, Studio One features a built-in Target Loudness option in the export or mixdown menus that lets you analyze and specify desired LUFS targets (such as -14 LUFS for Spotify or -16 LUFS for Apple Music). [1, 2]
  • Third-Party Plugins:
    You can also load third-party loudness meters—such as the Youlean Loudness Meter or others—directly onto your master bus for dedicated LUFS analysis. [1]

 

[tulamide]

Interesting, where this thread went. And regarding the general metering habits, I want to add my personal 2 cents.

As long as you make sure that the master never exceeds 0 dBFS, you have total freedom in how you mix. Wether you try to hit 0 dBFS in individual channels or use calibrated VU visuals or look for LUFS on individual channels (as strange as it is) - everything is fine, as long as the final output sticks to the rules (which change depending on destination).

I do most of my mixing simply by ear. Funnily enough, in the end it turns out that I seem to prefer -12 dBFS, as that is the level the main channels end up with, like drum bus, bass or keys. I usually end up with plenty of headroom to shape the final result to fit the LUFS requirements and such.

In the end, there is not that one correct method. Everything is fine that results in what you're aiming for.

 

[Grace de Richebourg]

The meter is very accurate but it only shows peak level. Peak level can be maxed out but loudness is measured in RMS or LUFS. That is a totally different level than peak.
There’s lots of 3rd party plugins that measure Loudness like the YouLean loudness meter.

Percussion as in my example of hand clapping can create maximum peak levels but the loudness is not very high.
I won’t try to explain as you have mentioned you are not an audio engineer but generally speaking, to lower peak level and raise the loudness we use compression and limiting. And that is why I mentioned that WaveLab, as an example, can perform this automatically with out you having to understand the theory behind it!
Im pretty advanced in my knowledge of using dynamic processing effects but I was getting nowhere with my problem. WaveLab is smarter than me. Im sure there are other tools available as well.
I have tried a few limiters that allow you to push the input but at a very early stage it just trashed the audio.

Not sure to understand what the Youlean make more than S1 Level Meter.

Ok then if i understand you well S1 Level Meter only show the short term LUFS one can find on the Youlean meter right ?
But then why is it written "INT" like integrated near the LUFS on the S1 Level Meter please ?
And are we agree to say that the LUFS that matters is the integrated one ? (plus the True Peak Max which is already present under the TP of the S1 Level Meter isn'it and i have all it matters right ?)

Does someone know if one can configure (hence make some change) the litlle plugin preview on each strip channel please ?

 

[Grace de Richebourg]

Interesting, where this thread went. And regarding the general metering habits, I want to add my personal 2 cents.

As long as you make sure that the master never exceeds 0 dBFS, you have total freedom in how you mix. Wether you try to hit 0 dBFS in individual channels or use calibrated VU visuals or look for LUFS on individual channels (as strange as it is) - everything is fine, as long as the final output sticks to the rules (which change depending on destination).

I do most of my mixing simply by ear. Funnily enough, in the end it turns out that I seem to prefer -12 dBFS, as that is the level the main channels end up with, like drum bus, bass or keys. I usually end up with plenty of headroom to shape the final result to fit the LUFS requirements and such.

In the end, there is not that one correct method. Everything is fine that results in what you're aiming for.

When you say "never exceeds 0 dbfs", do you mean i just have to NEVER clip the Master Main Out and i am done ?

Is 0dbFS equals to 0 True Peak Max by the way please ?