Stuck with a clipping track...

[Grace de Richebourg]

Hey there !

I dont know how to solve the technical mixing following problem.

I have a sound i really like but when its time to mix and bounce my song i realize this sound clip tons of db over....

Problem is when i turn down the volume of the track the sound i like kind of disappear so i realize that what i like is this sound when it is way too much hotter...

Is there something i can do in this situation please because i try few things but i cant reproduce the sound i like when i turn down the volume ?

Cheers

 

[SwitchBack]

When you like what you hear then record it, and use that for further mixing. Just make sure that your final mix isn't, technically, clipping.

 

[Vocalpoint]

Is there something i can do in this situation please because i try few things but i cant reproduce the sound i like when i turn down the volume ?

Clipping is never where you want to be.

Either turn it down or place a limiter on the track. There is no solution to the red light flashing - other than these two options.

No one else wants to hear clipping either BTW.

VP

 

[SwitchBack]

Clipping is never where you want to be.

Either turn it down or place a limiter on the track. There is no solution to the red light flashing - other than these two options.

No one else wants to hear clipping either BTW.

VP

Well, if clipping produces the preferred sound then who are we to say no. Recording through a garden hose? Fine too. But once the output is recorded, clipping lights and all, then the new track with the desired sound can be treated as any other, right up to a final mix which doesn't clip (as it shouldn't).

 

[Vocalpoint]

Well, if clipping produces the preferred sound then who are we to say no.

Absolutely bang on.

But then I would ask - why would the OP even care if that is the case?

Just let that clip light stay solid all day long and carry on - even if it is ruining the track.

For some folks - there is simply no way to explain to them why this is bad.

VP

 

[SwitchBack]

But then I would ask - why would the OP even care if that is the case?

Because you can't publish/share/play a final mix which is clipping, if only because playback may vary depending on how the playback equipment or medium treats 'overs'. So the final mix must be a TP/LUFS 'healthy' track.

 

[Grace de Richebourg]

No i have not been clear enough.

When i am on my DAW Studio One and listening to my track, it sounds perfectly ok even if the sound makes tons of red clipping signals on the master volume.

But when i export the exact same track it says my track is 15db over lol and ask me if i want to keep it or delete it.

But even if i decide to keep it, when i listen to the WAV file, the part which was clipping is now really noticeably audio clipping dramatically.

In the DAW i just see clipping signals on the master volume without hearing any audio problem, thats why i am a bit lost because i love that sound and it clips only when i export the song.

 

[Vocalpoint]

Because you can't publish/share/play a final mix which is clipping, if only because playback may vary depending on how the playback equipment treats 'overs'. So the final mix must be a TP/LUFS 'healthy' track.

Who says you can't publish it? You can publish anything you want - clipping or no clipping. Happens everyday - probably hundreds of times.

VP

 

[Vocalpoint]

No i have not been clear enough.

When i am on my DAW Studio One and listening to my track, it sounds perfectly ok even if the sound makes tons of red clipping signals on the master volume.

But when i export the exact same track it says my track is 15db over lol and ask me if i want to keep it or delete it.

But even if i decide to keep it, when i listen to the WAV file, the part which was clipping is now really noticeably audio clipping dramatically.

In the DAW i just see clipping signals on the master volume without hearing any audio problem, thats why i am a bit lost because i love that sound and it clips only when i export the song.

Because inside the DAW - with it's built in 32bit float mix engine and infinite headroom - even the worst clipping sounds fine.

But on export - that 32bit float world you are enjoying is converted into the world of rules (16/24bit WAV etc) and it has limits.

So you need to decide. Clip the crap out of your final WAV or get it back in line - in the DAW - with zero red lights.

But if you are actually 15 dbFS "over" in the WAV export - all I can say is - wow. You know what you need to do here.

Your call of course.

Pro Tip: When I export all my mixes - not a single one ever exceeds -3dbFS (final) on the Master Bus. (Main Out)

VP

 

[Grace de Richebourg]

Because inside the DAW - with it's built in 32bit float mix engine and infinite headroom - even the worst clipping sounds fine.

But on export - that 32bit float world you are enjoying is converted into the world of rules (16/24bit WAV etc) and it has limits.

So you need to decide. Clip the crap out of your final WAV or get it back in line - in the DAW - with zero red lights.

But if you are actually 15 dbFS "over" in the WAV export - all I can say is - wow. You know what you need to do here.

Your call of course.

Pro Tip: When I export all my mixes - not a single one ever exceeds -3dbFS (final) on the Master Bus. (Main Out)

VP

Ok thanks a lot Vocalpoint !

Just for information, to prevent your mixes to not exceed -3dbFS you place a limiter set at -3db ?

 

[Grace de Richebourg]

Edit: You say "you know what you need to do here"....

No precisely i dont know how i can keep this little sound i like without clipping !

 

[Vocalpoint]

No precisely i don't know how i can keep this little sound i like without clipping !

Precisely - I get it.

But if clipping is the issue - your little sound (on whatever track it is on) cannot exceed 0.0dbFS in the DAW - that is the only way to stop that track from clipping. End Stop.

Regardless of how much you like the sound - there are no shortcuts and no workarounds - you cannot have it both ways. (Sound great in the DAW and also sound great on Export). It is one or the other.

Just for information, to prevent your mixes to not exceed -3dbFS you place a limiter set at -3db ?

I generally never use a limiter on the master bus because I do not create final deliverables any actual "mix" phase - which is phase 2 for me.

Every track in every song of mine is carefully gain staged and then I mix until everything is bouncing around -3 dbFS on Main Out.

This target is set to preserve headroom for Phase 3 - mastering - where I will bring the level up and I will use limiting etc.

Nothing excessive but I am very aware of ensuring a release master of mine can compete - volume wise with everything else out there.

VP

 

[Grace de Richebourg]

Ok then you are saying that if i want to sound good as well on Export i have to get rid of this sound i like right ? there is not way around ? No little trick ?

And sorry for my VERY candid questions but how do you do to be sure to stay around +dbFS in Studio One please ?

 

[Vocalpoint]

Ok then you are saying that if i want to sound good as well on Export i have to get rid of this sound i like right ? there is not way around ? No little trick ?

No trick possible. Just follow the rules.

On a single track level - no track can ever peak higher that 0.0dfFS - or the clip lights will come on.
On the mix level - the sum of all tracks will determine the overall level of the Main Out. If that light is coming on - you mau need to adjust many tracks to the overall mix down below 0.0 dbFS

And sorry for my VERY candid questions but how do you do to be sure to stay around +dbFS in Studio One please ?

Me personally - I use a VU meter on a special Mix Buss that I set up into each session and I completely ignore ALL track meters in Studio Pro.

My VU meter is calibrated where -18dbFS (on a single track) = 0.0 VU on the VU meter. Then I simply adjust my individual track channels to be output somewhere between -7VU and 0.0 VU. Some "overs" on the VU (like for drums etc are just fine too.

Mixing via VU is a much more enjoyable experience. Once every track is dialled in (via VU meter) the track practically mixes itself. And no clipping is ever possible since all my tracks (say in a 24 track session) will usually all be down around -10 on the channel strips.

Been doing it this way for years.

VP

 

[tulamide]

Just for some general information sharing.

I know, most here know what will come, but some may not, so here it goes:

Clipping is a process, where a waveform is flattened at its extremes because the hardware is pushed beyond its limits. But within the digital realm, no clipping can occur. This is because instead of a voltage signal, it is just numbers, floating point numbers to be precise.

Only when the data leaves the digital realm, can clipping occur. In our case it's either the DAC of our sound device, or a file format with a lower resolution than the DAW's engine.

To keep sound intact when it leaves the digital realm, a math construct was created, a scale called dBFS. It always assumes a 1 Volt system, therefore the floating point number directly transforms into the logarithmic scale dBFS, with 0.0 defined as -inf dBFS and 1.0 defined as 0 dBFS. Since floating points can go way higher than 1.0, the theoretical digital limit of a 32-bit float engine is +770 dBFS. Higher than that the number will overflow - but at that point it is of no concern anyway. With a 64 bit float engine the theoretical digital limit would even be way above +6000 dBFS.

When driving a track hot, and the mixer channel shows clipping, it is actually just notifying us, that clipping will occur when transferred to the analog realm. For example, if you raise input gain and volume slider and the track shows, say, +12 dB clipping, and on the master you reduce by -12 dB, the waveform is still completely intact. It was not flattened at its extremes. If you don't reduce the volume on the master, it will still only actually clip, when the signal is calculated by your sound device's DAC (and you risk destroying your expensive speakers or headphones, because the membranes are not designed to stay at their extemes for a longer period).

Since you, @Grace de Richebourg , hear it and think it sounds good, you defintely judged a signal that left the digital realm and therefore was flattened at its extremes. There is an effect that does the same (in principle), but without the repercussions, as the signal will be intact and below 0 dBFS. It is called a clipper. So maybe try using a clipper plugin, instead of rendering actual clipping.

 

[Grace de Richebourg]

No trick possible. Just follow the rules.

On a single track level - no track can ever peak higher that 0.0dfFS - or the clip lights will come on.
On the mix level - the sum of all tracks will determine the overall level of the Main Out. If that light is coming on - you mau need to adjust many tracks to the overall mix down below 0.0 dbFS



Me personally - I use a VU meter on a special Mix Buss that I set up into each session and I completely ignore ALL track meters in Studio Pro.

My VU meter is calibrated where -18dbFS (on a single track) = 0.0 VU on the VU meter. Then I simply adjust my individual track channels to be output somewhere between -7VU and 0.0 VU. Some "overs" on the VU (like for drums etc are just fine too.

Mixing via VU is a much more enjoyable experience. Once every track is dialled in (via VU meter) the track practically mixes itself. And no clipping is ever possible since all my tracks (say in a 24 track session) will usually all be down around -10 on the channel strips.

Been doing it this way for years.

VP

Thanks a lot;

I am not sure though to understand why you could not do the same with S1 meters ?

 

[Grace de Richebourg]

Just for some general information sharing.

I know, most here know what will come, but some may not, so here it goes:

Clipping is a process, where a waveform is flattened at its extremes because the hardware is pushed beyond its limits. But within the digital realm, no clipping can occur. This is because instead of a voltage signal, it is just numbers, floating point numbers to be precise.

Only when the data leaves the digital realm, can clipping occur. In our case it's either the DAC of our sound device, or a file format with a lower resolution than the DAW's engine.

To keep sound intact when it leaves the digital realm, a math construct was created, a scale called dBFS. It always assumes a 1 Volt system, therefore the floating point number directly transforms into the logarithmic scale dBFS, with 0.0 defined as -inf dBFS and 1.0 defined as 0 dBFS. Since floating points can go way higher than 1.0, the theoretical digital limit of a 32-bit float engine is +770 dBFS. Higher than that the number will overflow - but at that point it is of no concern anyway. With a 64 bit float engine the theoretical digital limit would even be way above +6000 dBFS.

When driving a track hot, and the mixer channel shows clipping, it is actually just notifying us, that clipping will occur when transferred to the analog realm. For example, if you raise input gain and volume slider and the track shows, say, +12 dB clipping, and on the master you reduce by -12 dB, the waveform is still completely intact. It was not flattened at its extremes. If you don't reduce the volume on the master, it will still only actually clip, when the signal is calculated by your sound device's DAC (and you risk destroying your expensive speakers or headphones, because the membranes are not designed to stay at their extemes for a longer period).

Since you, @Grace de Richebourg , hear it and think it sounds good, you defintely judged a signal that left the digital realm and therefore was flattened at its extremes. There is an effect that does the same (in principle), but without the repercussions, as the signal will be intact and below 0 dBFS. It is called a clipper. So maybe try using a clipper plugin, instead of rendering actual clipping.

Ok thanks a lot for this detailed post my friend !
Yes a clipper could be an idea very good idea !!
(To be perfectly clear the sound i like is not a "saturation" like sound, it sounds like a very normal sound.)

 

[Vocalpoint]

Thanks a lot;

I am not sure though to understand why you could not do the same with S1 meters ?

Because the Studio Pro channel strips are peak meters - which do not reflect human perception of actual loudness.

Peak meters measure the highest voltage spikes in an audio signal every millisecond while VU meters react like the human ear

For me - couple big drawbacks of peak meters:

Loudness: A track with sharp, transient peaks (like a snare drum) will register very high on a peak meter, even if it's actually quiet overall. Conversely something like a dense bassline will register lower on a peak meter but sound incredibly loud to a listener.

Panic mixing: Peak meters react violently to any transient, so they make me start second guessing everything and soon I am pulling down faders or (usually) over-compressing elements that might actually need to breathe to sound natural.

While peak meters (as you already saw) are great to make sure a track doesn't clip our hardware (0 dBFS), they do not work for me at all when it comes to creating a mix that sounds balanced to my ears.

VP

 

[SwitchBack]

Because inside the DAW - with it's built in 32bit float mix engine and infinite headroom - even the worst clipping sounds fine.

But on export - that 32bit float world you are enjoying is converted into the world of rules (16/24bit WAV etc) and it has limits.

Here's something interesting to think about: What you hear of that lovely FP format inside you DAW is exported audio too, limited by the import format, dynamic range and analog output stage of the audio interface used. Where DAW clipping may sound OK or even interestingly nice from your DAW to your interface it will probably sound horrible when exported to say a 16-bit WAV and played on the home stereo. This is what I meant with 'playback may vary depending on how the playback equipment or medium treats 'overs''.

So if you really like the way that clipping track sounds from your DAW to your interface then record the output of the interface to a new track and take it from there. Studios did and still do the craziest things to get a particular sound or effect. You can too and this one may be it

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

Yes, these experiences are painful—and not just to the ears—when you have to make your way through the deep valley of tears...