Are we being ripped off?

[TimC340]

Craig, the PreSonus to Fender price rises applied here in Europe/UK too, where tariffs are not a factor. This was an opportunistic price rise. Fortunately last month I found a new PreSonus Quantum HD2 for £250 when the Fender-badged version is £411 (over 60% more) from the same supplier (scan.co.uk).

 

[Craig Anderton]

I design analog circuits. Mr. Clickbait video knows nothing about cicuit design. The Godbout Electronics kits that supported by book Electronic Projectcs for Musicians still work because Godbout's dealt with surplus parts, and many of the kit components were mil spec.

Compare the tantalum capacitors you find in high-end audio interfaces to standard aluminum electrolytics. Tantalum capacitors are more stable, the capacitance doesn't change, and they won't vomit all over your circuit after several years or dry out. They typically cost at least 5x more than electrolytics due to the high material costs, scarcity of raw tantalum metal, and the specialized manufacturing process. Also consider that small companies have to buy in smaller quantities. The single-piece pricing (typically 60 cents) is often 5x or more the 1,000 piece price. And there are tariffs on components now, too.

Can you hear a difference? Probably not at first, but you won't hear anything when the electrolytics die

What you will hear is the noise from carbon resistors. Metal-film resistors in the audio path are a far better choice, but they cost about 10x more than carbon resistors. They're often over a dollar in small quantities.

Making multilayer PC boards is far more expensive than single-layer boards. I could go on and on, like about switches with self-wiping contacts vs ones that aren't self-wiping. Every one of these changes costs money and adds up.

 

[Craig Anderton]

Craig, the PreSonus to Fender price rises applied here in Europe/UK too, where tariffs are not a factor.

Yes and no, it's much more nuanced than that. It's true that US tariffs apply only when goods enter the US. But as Bob Marley said in the song "So Much Things to Say” from the album Exodus:

"Remember that when the rain fall, it don’t fall on one man’s housetop."

The tariffs have a huge ripple effect that impacts seemingly unrelated commercial factors. This is because most companies use global pricing strategies, not country-specific cost structures. For example, global MSRP alignment implements one worldwide price band to avoid confusion. But there's also distributor margin protection. When U.S. tariffs squeeze margins, companies raise wholesale prices globally so distributors everywhere can maintain a stable profit. In other words, if Fender (and/or distributors) are going to eat some of the tariff costs and have reduced margins, rises elsewhere help make up the difference. Granted, it's unfair that people in the UK have to compensate for the corporate pain caused by tariffs. But I can understand a company saying "everybody pays more so that some customers don't have to pay much more." Companies don't like being forced to do this. But their shareholders don't like companies that lose money, so...

Another issue with price disparity involves anti-arbitrage. If for example Europe stays cheaper, in theory Americans will buy from EU dealers (although VAT often cancels that out, but that's a whole other issue). Manufacturers raise EU prices to protect their US dealers, who provide the bulk of their sales. It also discourages customers from buying products cheaply in one region, and reselling them into another region where prices are higher (the "gray market"). Companies can't afford to alienate their dealer networks. Finally, there's currency hedging, a factor of which most people aren't aware. Companies often adjust EU prices to offset USD volatility, even when tariffs are the original trigger. That's particularly the case now, as the dollar's position in the world economy comes under attack, and the tariffs remain in effect.

 

[SwitchBack]

So not the cost of the products but the tariffs have gone up. Who's to benefit from that I wonder...

 

[Vocalpoint]

Who's to benefit from that I wonder...

Well it’s not you or I. That is for sure.

VP

 

[lokeyfly]

The things that makes or breaks it for me are not just the sound, but how well the software bridging the hardware, the DAW in question, and me all get along, both now and the foreseeable future.

I did appreciate the narrator's reiteration of 'get your room right first'

Oh, so you're going to just waltz in here with common sense, are you? : )
Well, I like your contribution. Ken and I completely agree. These threads are amusing. There are different audio interface needs from all sorts. And $5 silicone is not the end-all common denominator. There are brilliant devices out there and there is some real crap to boot. Use what they will. It will be a far more telling outcome of what one puts into their craft, their acoustic environment (potentialy), their read on how that translates elsewhere, their songwriting or production capability, their artistry (wide open), their instrument(s) and mic'ing, mic placement........ somebody stop me.
or .

If you're each happy with what you own, great!

 

[sintil8]

I got ripped off in around about 2010 by RME when I bought the card that’s listed in my sig.
My ears have probably deteriorated more than the card!


Best regards folk

 

[SwitchBack]

Looking at the name of that card you couldn't expect anything else than being sold down the river, right...?

 

[Vocalpoint]

Craig, the PreSonus to Fender price rises applied here in Europe/UK too, where tariffs are not a factor.

If you really think that with the world as it is right now - from Tariffs to Iran to a worldwide doubling in the cost of diesel and on and on - is not a factor in the prices of "things" - regardless of what the item is or where we live when buying it - that is a naive assessment of how the world economy works.

VP

 

[Craig Anderton]

I also suspect there may be some anticipatory future-proofing built into pricing these days, so companies don't have to change prices every few months if the situation continues to deteriorate.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I suspect that the sheer costs of everything everywhere play a part in the costs of ADDA, interfaces, and such. Someone (be it California or China) has encode, build, assemble, package, and ship these things, meaning payrolls, health insurance, all that stuff. Facilities like rent/mortgages, the costs of keep the lights on, heating and cooling, corporate insurances, and such also have gone up, costs not directly tied to the price of chipsets. Businesses have to pay taxes, rates that vary wildly, depending on locale, as well as advertising (which have seen their own rate explosions).

Each 3rd party involved in getting a product from raw materials to your desktop/studio racks also has to offset the costs of reality on to you and I just to stay in business. As Craig so eloquently outlined, the actuality parts components involved in non-digital support of said chips is also pretty dang important in all this, components meant to last decades, not weeks.

When considering everything involved, I don't feel so 'ripped off' anymore...and considering how a $300 interface now can outgun a $3000 from not so long ago, I'd suggest we are getting a lot more than a bargain. Anyone remember Digidesign's completely proprietary HD line?

 

[k2347]

Anyone remember Digidesign's completely proprietary HD line?

Remember???I have about $40k of Digi PTHD hardware that are door stops now.Interfaces,HD cards,Control 24 with custom Argosy desk,etc.All bought new in 2007.When my Windows XP machine finally died in 2017 it was all over for my Pro Tools rig.All of it is for sale by the way.

 

[TimC340]

If you really think that with the world as it is right now - from Tariffs to Iran to a worldwide doubling in the cost of diesel and on and on - is not a factor in the prices of "things" - regardless of what the item is or where we live when buying it - that is a naive assessment of how the world economy works.

VP

At 70 years of age, and having had a professional life that took me to over 100 countries - including to the USA around 30 times a year - I am not a naïf. I am active in investing my own pension fund, and I watch the world's business issues closely. Yes, inflation caused by conflicts in Iran and Ukraine is real, and the effects of US tariffs on business elsewhere is a tangential factor. Craig has a point when he suggests worldwide price hikes reduce the load on one particular region (ie the USA), and I've no doubt that tactic is in play in some product lines. The effect of the datacentre boom has had on anything using memory is extreme. However, some of the price hikes in music and other consumer electronics are excessive and opportunistic and riding the back of a presumption that 'everything is going up so we can engineer a bit of price headroom in the melee'. It's been done before and it will be again, but it runs the risk that your market will turn away from you.

The hikes that Fender made in its prices of products that had not changed in any aspect except the labelling are an example of this kind of exploitation. A 60% increase in selling price, as I quoted for the HD2, isn't 'absorbing increased costs'. I'm pretty sure the retailers will do their best to discount the newer products as soon as they can, but I get the feeling that Fender is resisting this (from chats with a couple of contacts in the UK). We'll see, but it pays to apply discretion and research to whoever you're buying from.

 

[MisterE]

Remember???I have about $40k of Digi PTHD hardware that are door stops now.Interfaces,HD cards,Control 24 with custom Argosy desk,etc.All bought new in 2007.When my Windows XP machine finally died in 2017 it was all over for my Pro Tools rig.All of it is for sale by the way.

Well if you've been around a while then maybe you're also aware that around 1980 or so Fairchild limiters from the 50s and 60s were considered doorstops? A decade later, they were $30,000 holy grail pieces.

 

[sintil8]

Looking at the name of that card you couldn't expect anything else than being sold down the river, right...?

Over the term I have had the card at today's exchange rate it runs out to about 0.85 UK pence, or just over 1.13 USD per week, and no major headaches. Not a bad deal IMHO.
In my defence the folks at RME must have a sense of humour, they picked the name.

Kindest regards

 

[Vocalpoint]

The hikes that Fender made in its prices of products that had not changed in any aspect except the labelling are an example of this kind of exploitation.

I am certainly not suggesting that some vendors (or maybe a lot) are blatantly taking an opportunity to raise prices simply to take profit - pure and simple. It is easy to make it look like you have an excuse - if everyone is doing it.

But I did find your comment specific to the UK - to be odd - as if to say - your area is somehow immune to anything of this sort.

The bottom line here is the same as it's always been - global economy woes - or not - do your research, pick your targets, check em' out and if the price works and product delivers for you - get it. If not - carry on.

Nobody is forced to buy anything. That rule has not chnaged.

VP

 

[TimC340]

Nobody is forced to buy anything.

You're not taking into account my severe GAS!!

 

[Vocalpoint]

You're not taking into account my severe GAS!!

That is a forum topic unto itself

VP

 

[Craig Anderton]

However, some of the price hikes in music and other consumer electronics are excessive and opportunistic and riding the back of a presumption that 'everything is going up so we can engineer a bit of price headroom in the melee'.

I'm sure of that, the price of roofing materials in Florida skyrockets after a hurricane. However, it's not necessarily 100% opportunism, because shortages under those circumstances drive prices up (e.g., elevated shipping and warehousing costs due to bringing in materials from far away places that didn't have to deal with a hurricane).

To be fair, there are also companies that see the price increases as an opportunity to gain more market share, if they can maintain low prices. Unfortunately, a sudden 25% to 37.5% increase in materials cost makes maintaining low prices a challenge that often can't be overcome.

The slowdown in shipping also causes price increases. I'm consulting to a small company now whose finished product shipments have been delayed since January, but they still need to pay their employees, rent, etc. The money that's borrowed to do that will have to be paid back, and the only way to make up for months of losses is to make more money. If that can't be done by a significant increase in sales that compresses 9 months of sales into a few months, the only option is raising prices when the products finally do show up...assuming there's still a company left to sell them.

It's a total mess. My sympathies are with the customers and the companies. Companies know that consumers are price-sensitive. They also know that rising prices may very well reduce their profits, as having to eat some of the costs will reduce margins, and potential customers will decide to put off purchases of items like audio interfaces in favor of things like, y'know, food.