2 Questions about Micro Station BT and Behringer HD400

[SwitchBack]

Thanks for that explanation.

Are there rules in the US how to wire LN pins on power outlets? If yes, there is only one possible pin assignment, which an appliance designer can rely on. He can design the appliance in a way that works best with the pin assignment specified by the outlet. Pin swapping is not necessary and as a result, gadgets such as the GND Defender become obsolete (provided it works the way you described, which sounds plausible to me).

If there is no rule regarding wiring of LN pins on outlets (like in Germany and other EU countries), the position of the N pin is not always the same. In this case, the appliance designer should design the appliance in a way that it works good with any pin assignment. If he does so, pin swapping again is not necessary and the GND Defender is still obsolete.

On un-keyed outlets you can swap manually by simply turning the plug. That makes the GND Defender obsolete as well.

Besides that, there is one special situation in Europe, which also can happen in the US, I guess:
There are ungrounded appliances that have a 2-pin plug without a ground pin (for instance some HiFi gear). But regardless of the missing ground pin, these appliances do have EMI/RFI protection. As there is no ground pin, RFI protection consists of one condenser wired between the L pin and the housing and another condenser of the same capacity wired between the N pin and the housing. In this configuration, these condensers act as an AC voltage divider applying half of the mains voltage to the housing. In a 110V grid, this means that you can measure 55V AC from the housing to ground. However, the capacities of these condensers (around 10 nF) don't allow for currents that are dangerous to humans. You only can feel a little prickle when touching the housing of such an appliance. But regarding audio signals, 55 V is a lot and it definitely will cause hum noise when connecting a RFI-protected, non-grounded appliance with a grounded one. It also will feed AC to the ground pin of the grounded device, which is one of the reasons why ground potential is not always the same on all outlets in the house.

Yes, US switchgear is marked L, N, ⏚ for outlet neutral on the left ("V" orientation, ground prong at the bottom), as is UK switchgear ("A" orientation, outlet neutral on the left). Even CEE 7/3 and CEE 7/5 sockets as widely use in mainland Europe are marked for live on the left ("A" orientation, ground prong/hole at the top) so that angled plugs hang downwards, but this is poorly upheld. IEC C14 inlets as used worldwide on gear are marked too, for live on the left ("A" orientation, ground prong at the top).

So in summary:
1. US gear used in the US is fine (everything is keyed)
2. EU gear used in 'unkeyed' EU is fine (designed for unkeyed)
3. US gear used in 'unkeyed' EU is a concern (designed for keyed)

For 3. you want to make sure to plug in correctly. Connecting US gear the wrong way can damage the RFI filter, which makes matters worse. For decent mains installations it is possible to construct an adapter that auto-detects LN and corrects the connection automatically. In installations with a dirty neutral (long wires, high load) auto-detection can be a problem.

Two-prong gear (like many wall warts) is different. It is double isolated to provide safe galvanic isolation between mains and appliance power. There is no mains ground connection to the outer shell nor should there be any prickle on pro audio gear. There can be a signal ground connection though, to extend audio cable shielding to the appliance's case.

 

[brmichael]

3. US gear used in 'unkeyed' EU is a concern (designed for keyed)

For 3. you want to make sure to plug in correctly. Connecting US gear the wrong way can damage the RFI filter, which makes matters worse. For decent mains installations it is possible to construct an adapter that auto-detects LN and corrects the connection automatically. In installations with a dirty neutral (long wires, high load) auto-detection can be a problem.

Thanks for this information. Learning for life

In the early 1990s, I was working in the pro audio business. We were selling and installing all kinds of stage and studio gear. Of course, we also had US gear in stock, e. g. Crown and QSC power amplifiers. For use in the EU, all these appliances came with a power cable with an IEC plug on one end and an EU plug on the other.

In Germany, outlets are un-keyed. But all US gear we were selling worked fine with the power plug in any position. Maybe the importer made changes inside the appliances to prevent damages (if there would have been damages, the importer would have had to fix them at his expense due to German warranty law). But maybe no such changes were necessary, because the US manufacturers designed their appliances from the outset for the world-wide market including non-keyed power outlets.

However, there was one important thing that definitely had to be changed on US gear: power input had to be set to accept 230 V rather than 110 V. Some switching power supplies are capable of automatic voltage selection, so nothing had to be done. Sometimes one had to flip a switch, and in some cases it was necessary to replace the power transformer. But all this was done by the importer, retailers didn't have to deal with it.

@Sebastian Holtzer Never heard about "ausphasen", sorry. But as @SwitchBack explained, the pin assignment of the power plug can make a difference. In Germany, you simply have to turn the plug by 180 degrees to find out which assignment works best. No additional devices are required.

But as long as you avoid ground loops, orientation of the power plug should make no (or at least no big) difference. There are two ways to avoid ground loops in a way that is electrically safe: #1 to use only balanced or digital audio connections or #2 to break ground loops in the audio signal path by using an audio transformer or, if possible, optical or wireless connections. You can't always have #1 (especially when connecting pro audio and HiFi gear), so in many cases #2 should be easier to accomplish.

 

[SwitchBack]

In Germany, outlets are un-keyed. But all US gear we were selling worked fine with the power plug in any position. Maybe the importer made changes inside the appliances to prevent damages (if there would have been damages, the importer would have had to fix them at his expense due to German warranty law). But maybe no such changes were necessary, because the US manufacturers designed their appliances from the outset for the world-wide market including non-keyed power outlets.

However, there was one important thing that definitely had to be changed on US gear: power input had to be set to accept 230 V rather than 110 V. Some switching power supplies are capable of automatic voltage selection, so nothing had to be done. Sometimes one had to flip a switch, and in some cases it was necessary to replace the power transformer. But all this was done by the importer, retailers didn't have to deal with it.

I guess it's the switched mode power supplies that introduced the problem in the first place. The old transformer power supplies didn't care about LN And of course US manufacturers can design for un-keyed too. Probably a cost thing.

The Netherlands uses the same un-keyed CEE7/3 outlets as in Germany. At some point I started using Belgian power strips. The keyed CEE7/5 sockets accept the CEE7/7 plugs fitted on most power cables. That way I only have to make sure that the power strips are plugged in correctly.

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

@Sebastian Holtzer Never heard about "ausphasen", sorry. But as @SwitchBack explained, the pin assignment of the power plug can make a difference. In Germany, you simply have to turn the plug by 180 degrees to find out which assignment works best. No additional devices are required.

Ausphasen von HiFi-Geräten leicht gemacht

Die richtige Steckerposition in der Steckdose ist klangentscheidend, sie zu finden nennt sich Ausphasen. STEREO zeigt wie's geht.

www.stereo.de

I thought you guys talking about this, cause you were talking about 180 degree change in power socket so far I understood.

 

[brmichael]

Ok, "Ausphasen" means to find the plug position that causes the least AC voltage coming out of the "ground" lead of audio inputs/outputs (ring on RCA connectors).

Thats a pure HiFi thing. We're on pro audio. Professionals solve problems of this kind by either using balanced connections or DI boxes (such as the HD400).

But also with HiFi gear, I never cared about "Ausphasen". I just connected the components without changing the wiring afterwards. Despite of that, noise level was never higher than you would expect (of course there is always noise, but that's ok if you only can hear it when you turn volume up to insane levels).

 

[Davey]

I've solved all sorts of hum and noise problems over the years.

The ground rules:

1. Always use balanced connections where available.

2. Get a filtered mains extension block.

3. USB is a bugger (<- technical term). If you have an external synth that is powered by USB originating from your PC, even via a hub, you will have noise on those power lines. Some synths filter it better than others. Power it from a USB wall wart and connect any MIDI lines separately, via 3.5mm to 5 pin DIN adapters if necessary. Messier wiring, cleaner sound.

4. Try a cheap noise filter in the audio lines. I have a bunch of these. They have a 1:1 audio transformer in them so basically act as a ground lift and they are cheap as chips:

Ground Loop Filter Noise Isolator, Potable Noise Filter Compatible with Car Audio/Home Stereo System Eliminate Humming and Buzzing Noise Completely with 3.5mm(1/8”) Interface Audio Aux Cable : Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

Ground Loop Filter Noise Isolator, Potable Noise Filter Compatible with Car Audio/Home Stereo System Eliminate Humming and Buzzing Noise Completely with 3.5mm(1/8”) Interface Audio Aux Cable : Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

www.amazon.co.uk

5. Never, never, never, NEVER disconnect any earth lead on a mains connection. It might solve your noise problem but it will definitely make your studio less safe.

6. This should probably have been first in the list. Read the manual(s) for your equipment. Sometimes they have hints and tips for noise suppression, including unbalanced to balanced cable suggestions. Example:

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

Man, so many thanks here. I noticed now the hum on the Sub is from the Sub itself. You can only hear it once you're so close to the Sub that you touch it with your ears.
But Davey, I used Balanced Cables, because I am aware of. I choosed Jolgoo. Maybe it's a Brand from China but I don`t care. They seemed to be a good choice for me.

From PCIe Audio-Interface to Microstation BT:

JOLGOO 6,35 mm TRS auf Dual 1/4 Zoll TS Mono Stereo Breakout Kabel, Stecker 6,35 mm 1/4 Zoll TRS auf Dual 1/4 Zoll TS Y Splitter Kabel, 1,8 m : Amazon.de: Elektronik & Foto

JOLGOO 6,35 mm TRS auf Dual 1/4 Zoll TS Mono Stereo Breakout Kabel, Stecker 6,35 mm 1/4 Zoll TRS auf Dual 1/4 Zoll TS Y Splitter Kabel, 1,8 m : Amazon.de: Elektronik & Foto

www.amazon.de

From Microstation to Eris Studio 5:

JOLGOO XLR-Buchse auf 6,35-mm-TRS-Stecker, symmetrisches Verbindungskabel, XLR auf Viertel-Zoll-Kabel, 1,8 m, 2 Stück, für Mikrofon, Mixer, Gitarre, Verstärker, Lautsprecher : Amazon.de: Musikinstrumente & DJ-Equipment

JOLGOO XLR-Buchse auf 6,35-mm-TRS-Stecker, symmetrisches Verbindungskabel, XLR auf Viertel-Zoll-Kabel, 1,8 m, 2 Stück, für Mikrofon, Mixer, Gitarre, Verstärker, Lautsprecher : Amazon.de: Musikinstrumente & DJ-Equipment

www.amazon.de

From Microstation to Eris Sub 8BT:

https://www.amazon.de/JOLGOO-1-4-TRS-Kabel/dp/B0D6BGZZSX?th=1

From Sonarworks Microphone to PCIe Audio Interface:

JOLGOO XLR-Buchse auf 6,35-mm-TRS-Stecker, symmetrisches Verbindungskabel, XLR auf Viertel-Zoll-Kabel, 1,8 m, 2 Stück, für Mikrofon, Mixer, Gitarre, Verstärker, Lautsprecher : Amazon.de: Musikinstrumente & DJ-Equipment

JOLGOO XLR-Buchse auf 6,35-mm-TRS-Stecker, symmetrisches Verbindungskabel, XLR auf Viertel-Zoll-Kabel, 1,8 m, 2 Stück, für Mikrofon, Mixer, Gitarre, Verstärker, Lautsprecher : Amazon.de: Musikinstrumente & DJ-Equipment

www.amazon.de

Or is the Problem with the Breakout Cable in the first place from PCIe to Microstation BT? I thought that's symmectrical too.

 

[brmichael]

@Sebastian Holtzer The Jolgoo cables look good to me. I'm using cables in a similar price range such as these:
https://www.thomann.de/de/kirlin_ap_209pr_06_bk.htm

The breakout cable, however, is not balanced (all other cables are). There is a TRS plug at one end, but ring/sleeve on this plug are not there for balancing, but for unbalanced connection to left and right channel of a stereo output. The plugs at the other end are unbalanced TS (tip/sleeve) plugs.

Edit: I found out that the line outputs on the Maya44 ex are unbalanced. The breakout cable is suitable for use with these outputs. But I think it's a good idea to insert the HD400 into the connection between the card's outputs and the input of the Micro Station in order to convert the card's unbalanced output signal into a balanced signal suitable for the (balanced) L/R inputs of the Micro Station. For the connection between HD400 and the Micro Station you should use TRS->TRS cables.

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

Edit: I found out that the line outputs on the Maya44 ex are unbalanced. The breakout cable is suitable for use with these outputs. But I think it's a good idea to insert the HD400 into the connection between the card's outputs and the input of the Micro Station in order to convert the card's unbalanced output signal into a balanced signal suitable for the (balanced) L/R inputs of the Micro Station. For the connection between HD400 and the Micro Station you should use TRS->TRS cables.

I'm going to buy a new pc this winter and planning to buy an ESI Juli@ XE for it if there is'nt any better. I'm still a bit sceptical about usb-sudio-interfaces.

 

[brmichael]

Juli@ has balanced outputs. That's perfect for use with Micro Station. But you'll need TRS->TRS cables to connect the two.

But I'm afraid that the Juli@ eX only has line inputs, no microphone inputs (its predecessor Juli@ XTe definitely had no microphone inputs). If so, you might need a separate microphone preamp if you want to record acoustic instruments or vocals. But unfortunately I couldn't find any manuals or specs for Juli@ eX to prove this. ESI apparently forgot to provide a download link for the user manual for Juli@ eX

PCIe interfaces in fact have lower latency than USB interfaces.

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

Juli@ has balanced outputs. That's perfect for use with Micro Station. But you'll need TRS->TRS cables to connect the two.

But I'm afraid that the Juli@ eX only has line inputs, no microphone inputs (its predecessor Juli@ XTe definitely had no microphone inputs). If so, you might need a separate microphone preamp if you want to record acoustic instruments or vocals. But unfortunately I couldn't find any manuals or specs for Juli@ eX to prove this. ESI apparently forgot to provide a download link for the user manual for Juli@ eX

PCIe interfaces in fact have lower latency than USB interfaces.

Download the Drivers .zip. As long as I remember in the first Version there was a Datasheet file in it. But it has Mikrophone input and 48v phantom feed so tha Juli@ eX should fit our needs.

Please scroll a bit and read the specs here:

ESI Juli@ eX

ESI Juli@ eX; PCIe-Audiointerface; Sabre ESS-Wandler mit 32bit / 192kHz; EWDM-Treiber für niedrige Latenz; wechselbares I/O-Panel: Cinch (unsymmetrisch) oder TRS (symmetrisch); digitale Ein- und Ausgänge S/PDIF (optisch / koaxial); MIDI I/O über...

www.thomann.de

 

[brmichael]

There is no manual or specs sheet inside the .zip for Juli@ eX drivers. The specs on the Thomann website might be an error.

According to the manual of the older Juli@ XTe (which is available at ESI, unlike the Juli@ eX manual) the XTe has no microphone inputs.

Edit: according to https://www.esi-audio.de/produkte/juliaex/ the Juli@ eX interface has either +4dBu balanced outputs (TRS) or -10dBu unbalanced outputs (RCA/Cinch), depending on how the upper part of the card is connected. No mentioning of mic level or phantom power. I'd prepare for having to buy an additional microphone preamp

Onboard mic preamps on a PCIe interface might be a problem anyway, because they are more sensitive to RF interference coming from the PC's mainboard and graphics card, which is something an external preamplifier isn't affected by.

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

There is no manual or specs sheet inside the .zip for Juli@ eX drivers. The specs on the Thomann website might be an error.

According to the manual of the older Juli@ XTe (which is available at ESI, unlike the Juli@ eX manual) the XTe has no microphone inputs.

Edit: according to https://www.esi-audio.de/produkte/juliaex/ the Juli@ eX interface has either +4dBu balanced outputs (TRS) or -10dBu unbalanced outputs (RCA/Cinch), depending on how the upper part of the card is connected. No mentioning of mic level or phantom power. I'd prepare for having to buy an additional microphone preamp

Onboard mic preamps on a PCIe interface might be a problem anyway, because they are more sensitive to RF interference coming from the PC's mainboard and graphics card, which is something an external preamplifier isn't affected by.

Let's write to ESI and ask. Had contact to an employer a few years ago because of driver issue. Guy was very friendly and helpful an gave me a Beta-Driver. In the end the issues was at my end and not ESI mistake. Will you or should I? That's what customer Service is for.

 

[brmichael]

It's a good idea to contact ESI support. I think you should do it, as I do not plan to buy a Juli@ eX interface. Maybe you can also ask them to put a download link for the Juli@ eX user's manual on the product page.

BTW: https://www.buenasideas.de/test/testbericht-esi-juli-ex-internal-affairs/ also mentions only line inputs, no mic inputs.

Besides that, I'm very impressed how ESI keeps drivers up to date. Drivers even for the Maya44 (which was released several years ago) were updated this year.

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

It's a good idea to contact ESI support. I think you should do it, as I do not plan to buy a Juli@ eX interface. Maybe you can also ask them to put a download link for the Juli@ eX user's manual on the product page.

BTW: https://www.buenasideas.de/test/testbericht-esi-juli-ex-internal-affairs/ also mentions only line inputs, no mic inputs.

Besides that, I'm very impressed how ESI keeps drivers up to date. Drivers even for the Maya44 (which was released several years ago) were updated this year.

Funny, I had a look a month ago for new drivers. Man, thank you! I just wrote to support. Will inform you what they have to say about this confusion with thomann specs. When they answer, I will ask if they can give me a link because I forgot to ask for.

I believe that a German product should be characterized by quality and durability. After all, these qualities once earned us a worldwide reputation, transforming "Made in Germany" from a laughingstock to a symbol of quality. Even though the spirit of German craftsmanship is increasingly fading today and everything comes from China, these are values that I personally want to uphold. I firmly believe that a German product should be built to last with the best possible quality and available at moderate prices. The goal must be clearly to be at least on par with the top brands, to be superior to them in both quality and price. A customer wants products of the highest quality at fair prices that last a lifetime and are properly maintained by the manufacturer.

 

[Sebastian Holtzer]

It's a good idea to contact ESI support. I think you should do it, as I do not plan to buy a Juli@ eX interface. Maybe you can also ask them to put a download link for the Juli@ eX user's manual on the product page.

BTW: https://www.buenasideas.de/test/testbericht-esi-juli-ex-internal-affairs/ also mentions only line inputs, no mic inputs.

It is like you said. The customer support wrote today. Thomann specs are a bit misleading.

But I'm sure once there is a Driver now for Maya eX under Win11 and it is working fine i don't need a Juli@ eX. I can upgrade now to Win 11 and buy a new PC around Christmas.

 

[brmichael]

Maya44 definitely has a phantom-powered mic input, so you won't need a separate mic preamp. If you set line input 1 as a mic input, it also turns into a balanced input (phantom power won't work on unbalanced inputs).

However, the analog outputs are always unbalanced. But with the HD400 this shouldn't be a problem, as the HD400 can work as an unbalanced -> balanced converter. I'd put the HD400 between the Maya and the Micro Station with the breakout cable between Maya and HD400 and two TRS -> TRS cables between HD400 and Micro Station.