Volume automation and DCA problems...

[music project]

i am mixing a recording of a live show.
1. started with balancing the tracks
2. i assigned the diffarent groups of tracks (drums, guitars, vocals...) to DCAs for easy balancing along the show's songs. without automation yet !
3. while balancing the tracks to get a more accurate mix i ended up with some DCA faders below or above 0 (unity)
4. while mixing a song from the show i needed to make some volume automation on individual tracks. but after making a volume automation point the volume snaped down (the same ratio as the DCA was below unity) and changed the volume of the track.

from what i know and learned, DCAs can trim volume automation according to their relative position, but only after they come to exist !

is my workflow wrong ? should i have done track automation first and only then create DCAs ?
how can i make automation changes now, after i have balanced my DCAs, without my mix changing and get all scrambled up ?

 

[Wolfger]

this is quite strange indeed. I did a test:
1 Track assigned to VCA:

1) Draw an automation point: automation line stays in same position, track fader drops to -30:

2) Draw automation points via range tool: Automation line jumps up, fader stays in same position:

3) Record Automation via Touch-Mode, same result as 2):

Something is not right here!!!
Possible workaround: Before drawing automation, click on the VCA channel in the console and select "Merge VCA Automation".
VCA fader will be reset to 0 without moving the connected channels.
Then start drawing automation.

 

[music project]

this is quite strange indeed. I did a test:
1 Track assigned to VCA:
View attachment 520
1) Draw an automation point: automation line stays in same position, track fader drops to -30:View attachment 521
2) Draw automation points via range tool: Automation line jumps up, fader stays in same position:
View attachment 522
3) Record Automation via Touch-Mode, same result as 2):
View attachment 523

Something is not right here!!!
Possible workaround: Before drawing automation, click on the VCA channel in the console and select "Merge VCA Automation".
VCA fader will be reset to 0 without moving the connected channels.
Then start drawing automation.

thanks for your reply and testing.
i will try your workaround.

i too think this is not a "normal" behaviour for DCAs and track volume automation. DCAs are trimmers and should not change actual track volumes unless they are moved. the mix engine should compensate on the fly with every change done to individual tracks and not "jump" as soon as an automation point or move is done.

 

[SwitchBack]

VCAs/DCAs are a remote control for (multiple) other faders. Fader automation in combination with (automated) DCAs gives a confusing situation with two captains on the ship. For predictable operation I think you have to choose between fader automation or (automated) DCAs for those faders.

 

[TDF1981]

VCAs/DCAs are a remote control for (multiple) other faders. Fader automation in combination with (automated) DCAs gives a confusing situation with two captains on the ship. For predictable operation I think you have to choose between fader automation or (automated) DCAs for those faders.

That’s not entirely true as a VCA is exactly for that situation where you have already applied track automation of many channels but want to change the overall automation (let’s say before those tracks go into a bus with a compressor in), so this should work. Make sure to install 7.1.1 and get in touch with support if it still doesn’t work as expected.

 

[Wolfger]

I have 7.1.1 installed, it´s also happening in v6. Strange thing is, that the behaviour is different between drawing an automation point and using touch automation or the range tool as shown in my screenshots. Definitely a flaw in the concept.

 

[reginaldStjohn]

I am observing an unexpected behaviour when automating the volume of a track assigned to a VCA fader.

The channel level is set to -11.9db. The VCA channel is set to -8.6.

I then click to add an automation node to the "Acoustic" track. It shows a node placed on the automation line and it shows a shadow line 8.6 db below it. I am assuming this is showing the actual level based on the VCA -8.6db.

However, Notice that the Volume Fader of the Acoustic track now shows -20.5db. If the transport is started the Acoustic audio has been reduce and is much softer. All I have done is add an automation node. This is not what I was expecting.

In addition, hitting undo, undoes the automation node but leaves the track at the reduced volume.

What I would expect is that I could automate the individual track and then that would be offset by the assigned VCA. Please help me understand what is going on or if this is a bug.

Thank you

 

[Wolfger]

Hi!

Actually no solution to the problem.
Possible workaround:
Merge VCA Automation before automating tracks connected to a VCA.

 

[Wolfger]

I opened a ticket with support. Will post when they reply.

 

[reginaldStjohn]

Thank you Wolfger for your response. I did not know about that previous thread. I will open a support ticket as well.

 

[reginaldStjohn]

Still no response from PreSonus on my Bug Submission. Not even an acknowledgement email?

 

[Wolfger]

No response to my ticket either.

 

[SwitchBack]

That’s not entirely true as a VCA is exactly for that situation where you have already applied track automation of many channels but want to change the overall automation (let’s say before those tracks go into a bus with a compressor in), so this should work. Make sure to install 7.1.1 and get in touch with support if it still doesn’t work as expected.

The problem is that the indicator for the actual setting (i.e. the fader knob) is also one of the controls for that setting. The effect of VCA control is obvious as long as from then on you keep your hands off the fader (automation). But when you touch the fader (automation) on a fader which has VCA automation on it too then something has to give. Touch control should/will rewrite the fader automation, but what does it do with the VCA (automation) offset then? Or is it rewriting the fader automation to also compensate for the VCA (automation) offset? When you push a fader to +5 at a point where VCA (automation) offset is -10 will fader automation then write +15? Even though faders only go to +10? Or does it ignore VCA automation until you release the fader knob, at which point the VCA (automation) offset will kick in again? As I wrote before you sort of have two captains on the ship now. Confusing for sure.

 

[Wolfger]

Support Jonny wrote that he passed this along to Studio One QA Team for their investigation.

Kind regards
Wolfger

 

[SwitchBack]

Let's see then what they can come up with. This is one of those where routine dictates preferred behaviour. And since there are a lot of different routines around it can never be right for all, or so it seems.

 

[Midiboy]

I honestly have been using Busses rather than VCA because of this issue. I really don't notice an advantage of using a VCA for my purposes anyway. (I get that a VCA controls the actual sliders, and I get the concept of the voltage vs the volume, but for me, I don't really notice a difference other than convenience. I can just slide the sliders instead). It would be nice if this ever gets fixed though.

 

[SwitchBack]

Maybe the solution is to have the VCAs offset the fader gain (the little dB indicator above the fader) but NOT the actual position of the fader knob. Advantage is that fader position and automation are now completely separate from VCA control and automation, solving the mixed use conundrum. Disadvantage of course is that you lose the 'true gain at a glance' overview from the fader knobs. So maybe the dB indicator should change color too when a VCA (offset) is present.