Question: Has Transform to Audio EVER allowed us to "freeze" an audio track that has comping takes associated with it?

[Vocalpoint]

Trying to get some backgrounder on this.

A Reddit user is claiming this tool has been "broken" for 6+ years and will erase all "comping takes" if Transform to Audio is applied to a "comped" track. He is convinced that this function "should" not only preserve the comped track BUT also all the layers when the track is "unfrozen".

While I think this sounds cool (and he kinda has a point) - I do not see that as being possible the way I understand this to work (on a track level).

This user also makes this good point:

"If you have layers, at the very least, it should give you a warning that they will be discarded in my opinion, to avoid losing hours of work and having to dig through backups."

So what is the deal with this specific function in this specific scenario? Is Transform to Audio FOR a comped audio track (and all it's layers) - actually broken OR is this user simply trying to wedge this tool into a scenario it was never designed for?

Would love some analysis from the crew.

Cheers

VP

 

[Wolfger]

When switching from Logic Pro and Nuendo to SO this was the first major inconvenience for me.
Both Logic and Nuendo preserve layers of a comp when freezing. So one of the first macros I created in SO was a macro that would duplicate/disable and hide the source track to keep layers if changes were requested later on. I general I now prefer the concept of transform to audio because editing after transforming is still possible which is not the case when freezing in Logic or Nuendo (one always has to unfreeze for editing).
Since getting my M3 Max Laptop, transform to audio is only necessary under very rare circumstances for me. But yes, keeping layers when transforming should be possible and I also think it´s broken. What would be the reasons to transform back to realtime audio? I can only think of two:
1) Make changes to the sound
2) Make changes to the audio/MIDI
So only having option 1) when transforming back to realtime audio while option 2) would be incomplete with losing layers, seems an oversight.

 

[tacman7]

Keeping track of your midi is your responsibility. You can rename your layers so you know what it is you're hanging onto.

When I bounce a part I name the audio for the name of the voice that created it and I label the midi and put it down in the layers.

That way you can make many parts with different voices from the same instrument, and it can be redone later if need be.

We never had a all encompassing freeze command.

If you want to have less processing you can disable the instrument after you bounce the audio.

I think it's a shift of attitude, you have to make decisions, which is no problem if you're the artist, your choices are part of your craft.

If you're not the artist then you're more of a librarian, just saving everything. I found that all the stuff I saved and put away, I never made it back to do anything with it.

My two cents.

 

[Vocalpoint]

Yeah - not talking about MIDI at all.

I am talking about right clicking on a raw audio track - say a 32 second guitar solo with 14 "takes" (as layers) below it. I have "comped" segments of the 14 layers into the actual solo that I want (like normal) - and then I choose Transform to Audio.

If one assumes this command acts like it does for MIDI instruments AND preserves EVERYTHING (if I do choose) - one should be to consolidate the parts of the solo I want to keep - into the actual top audio track AND preserve the 14 layers below for use later.

It is this layer preservation that is a mystery. Is what I describe "broken" or is trashing the 14 hard fought layers I made for my solo - by design.

That is the question.

VP

 

[tacman7]

I guess I don't know what you're asking. Freeze is a way to preserve the state of an instrument and decrease the amount of processing, so you would freeze some tracks if you're computer can't keep up with your processing.

Bouncing makes a new audio file from what you're bouncing but doesn't effect the track otherwise. Your layers are still there.
Bounce doesn't include inserts in the new file, if you want that use bounce to new track.

There's nothing to freeze, you can hide the track and or disable it.

 

[Wolfger]

We are talking about the "transform to audio" function. We don´t have freeze in Studio One.
If you freeze in other DAWs to preserve processing power and decide to also edit your solo later on with choosing from different layers and freeze again you can do so. In Studio One, as Vocal Point describes, when you "transform to audio" your guitar solo, to preserve processing power and then later on you decide to re-edit your guitar solo you will discover, that all your 14 layers are gone. this isn´t happening in any other DAW.
MIDI-Layers are also lost when "transform to audio" for instruments is used. So people not knowing the behaviour of "transform to audio" willl definitely loose work, which is, as I understand it the point of the thread-opening post.

 

[Vocalpoint]

I guess I don't know what you're asking. Freeze is a way to preserve the state of an instrument and decrease the amount of processing, so you would freeze some tracks if you're computer can't keep up with your processing.

Bouncing makes a new audio file from what you're bouncing but doesn't effect the track otherwise. Your layers are still there.
Bounce doesn't include inserts in the new file, if you want that use bounce to new file.

There's nothing to freeze, you can hide the track and or disable it.

Well - some are looking at this as "freeze". As in - I want to render out my (already in "audio") solo (as comped) and "transform" it BACK to audio, and remove all processing/FX and preserve all layers.

In other words - freeze out this entire "comp" session , package it up and allow me to return to it whenever I want - with all my original takes/layers intact

Just like I would with a MIDI instrument if I decide to "un-transform" an Instrument track - the process deletes the rendered audio, re-activates the original MIDI AND the instrument and lets me return to exactly where I was before even thinking about Transforming to Audio.

But - I just tested this and there is only one choice when right clicking on an Audio track and it is "Transform to Rendered Audio" - here is the dialog that I get:



There is literally nothing here to preserve - except the insert FX. Nothing mentioned about layers or anything else

I realize this is a weird scenario - and not one I would ever do - but I do not think this is broken.

I believe "Transform to Rendered Audio" is intended to specifically deal with a standalone audio track and preserve what is listed here.

If you got layers = hard cheese kid - this does not apply. Still think there should either be a warning that your "takes" will disappear OR not allow the user to even click on Transform to Rendered Audio" if layers exist.

As I suspected.

VP

 

[tacman7]

Sometimes when I comp a vocal track and I have a thousand edits I would make a copy of it before I bounce it, then I could redo the bounce if it needs adjustment. Easy to do, just make a new layer and highlight your layer with the edits and that will copy it to the new layer and you can bounce it there.

This was from an old post by JPettit:
This is a newer version:

Render Options in Studio One

PreSonus Software Specialist Gregor Beyerle teaches you everything you need to know about Studio One’s render options. The flexibility that Studio One offers...

youtu.be

I wrote this for myself to better understand the difference between Merge, Bounce, Transform and Export/Import Stem
It might be helpful to others.

Merge, Bounce, Transform and Export/Import Stem
These approaches and terms can be confusing as they can do similar things but do in fact have unique aspects. Think of Merge and Bounce as ways to clean up or uncluttered a song’s events. Merge is more flexible than bounces as it can be dissolved, but bounce makes copies of the source file if you want to apply variations of FX on the same source file. Transform supplies the ultimate (reduce my CPU need), the balance of rendering with the ability to un-transform if needed but at a track level. Exporting and importing a stem give you the additional ability to mix/merge tracks.

Bounce File Management
Every Bounce operation creates new audio files that are placed into the Pool for the current Song.

Merge Events (Audio/Instrument Parts G ): will Glue the events together into an Audio/Instrument Part which can be dissolved back into its separate parts later. Parts are used for clean up, convenient moves, if you want to duplicate the combined events, want to apply a consistent edit too many events or drag many events into the Browser as a single audio loop (retaining each slice or event).

Bounce (selection) Audio Events Ctrl+B: Renders a copy of the event(s) (as in a new file in the pool) in place. This can be helpful if you want to apply different transient edits or Melodyne Edits to the same original event to create variation. ( create a copy first or drag from the pool)
It will also merge multiple selected events on the same track together into a new copy of the combined events. This is useful to clean up a track that may have many audio slices or events on it. It does not apply or remove the FX’s that are on the corresponding channel. It does apply event based FX and envelopes. It also with snap on, extends the event to the nearest measure. Turn snap off if you want the actual event length.

Bounce Instrument Events: Will render the Instrument MIDI data to an audio event on a new track. It will then mute the original Instrument track. Instrument bounce will apply FX’s that are on the corresponding, Instrument Channel but keep the FX on the original muted Instrument track. It can be helpful if an external or internal Instrument needs to be rendered to audio.

Bounce to New Track: Ctrl+Alt+B is very much like Bounce Instrument in that it uses the FX on the Channel to create a new track and mutes the original. This gives you more flexibility in the Bouncing process for audio tracks in that the original with the original FX are kept in the project but the event is muted. This means you can with a few clicks get back to the original or create many FX variations on the same source file on additional tracks. Or think of it as a convenient way to copy( not duplicate) an event at the same point in time to a new track

Transform Audio Track: will render the audio with the FX that are on the corresponding Channel in place as well as use the Auto tail feature to include long delays or decays. This is a more flexible way to apply FX to an audio track for the sake of reducing CPU hungry FX’s as it applies the FX and is un-doable.

Transform Instrument Track: Like Audio Transform Track but has too many options to explain here as it also deals with removing instruments and rendering multiple outputs for a given instrument. It is the ultimate Freeze unfreeze choice for instruments.

Export Stems /Import to track (case) The option can yield similar results as the Bounce to track option as you can try many variations of FX and Event edits between each render to a track. It also has the unique ability to mix of merge multiple tracks into one track. I.E the historical " reel to reel" root to the term “bounce”.

Drag an Instrument track event(s) to an Audio track This is essentially an Instrument Track Transform but only for selected events. You end up with a compound Audio + Instrument data event like a transform. File length equals selected events, Includes the audio events + Event FX + Event envelope, Does NOT include channel or master bus processing

EXPORTING AUDIO STEMS/CHANNELS for Various Reasons:
• Song Export Stems / Channels:
o Any channels including bus or FX channels
o File length equals range selected in export
o Includes all upstream processing (Channels inserts FX, Event FX, Event envelopes, Channels Fader level/pan, Mutes)
o Does NOT include Master channel settings: (Fader level, Inserts)

• Song Export Stems / Tack, or Song Export Mix down:
o Must be a track ( no bus or FX channels)
o File length equals range selected in export
o Includes The entire signal chain including master settings: (Channels inserts FX, Event FX, Event envelopes, Channels Fader level/pan, Mutes, Master channel settings: (Fader level, Inserts)

• Drag a track event to a Studio One Browser/Folder: (example: My songs events audio)
o File length equals event size (no position within the song)
o Includes the audio events + Event FX + Event envelope
o Does NOT include channel or master bus processing

• Alt+ Drag a track event to a Studio One Browser/Folder:
o File length equals event size
o Includes all upstream processing (Channels inserts FX, Event FX, Event envelopes, Channels Fader level/pan, Mutes) but not master bus processing

• (Select all events with Range Tool starting at zero) Drag a track event to a Studio One Browser/Folder: (example: My songs events audio)
o A file length equals the range selected (with independent events at the correct times within song)
o Includes the audio events + Event FX + Event envelope
o Does NOT include channel or master bus processing

• <Song folder>/Media:
o Raw unprocessed files that were recorded in Studio One or Imported media (Not Soundset based loops)
o Length equals event size
About 75% test for accuracy.

 

[Wolfger]

As I already wrote, no other DAW I know of deletes layers when freezing/rendering/transforming to audio how ever we call it.
Real world scenario or how I learned the hard way what transforming to audio with MIDI-instrument tracks does in Studio One:

Session with a keyboard player, he jams in some instrument tracks, one of it is a solo, record in loop, end up with 4 takes in layers, choose take 3.
He adds additional tracks.
Your computer runs out of CPU. You start to "transform to audio" some of the instrument tracks (solo included).
End of session keyboard player wants to hear take 4 of his solo. Select "transform to instrument track" for your solo. Result:MIDI solo of take 3 is recreated but all the other takes of the solo are gone. Confusion!!!! Never happened in Logic or Nuendo. Explain to Keyboard player this is intended behaviour, really????

 

[Wolfger]

Sometimes when I comp a vocal track and I have a thousand edits I would make a copy of it before I bounce it, then I could redo the bounce if it needs adjustment. Easy to do, just make a new layer and highlight your layer with the edits and that will copy it to the new layer and you can bounce it there.

This was from an old post by JPettit:
This is a newer version:

Render Options in Studio One

PreSonus Software Specialist Gregor Beyerle teaches you everything you need to know about Studio One’s render options. The flexibility that Studio One offers...

youtu.be

I wrote this for myself to better understand the difference between Merge, Bounce, Transform and Export/Import Stem
It might be helpful to others.

Merge, Bounce, Transform and Export/Import Stem
These approaches and terms can be confusing as they can do similar things but do in fact have unique aspects. Think of Merge and Bounce as ways to clean up or uncluttered a song’s events. Merge is more flexible than bounces as it can be dissolved, but bounce makes copies of the source file if you want to apply variations of FX on the same source file. Transform supplies the ultimate (reduce my CPU need), the balance of rendering with the ability to un-transform if needed but at a track level. Exporting and importing a stem give you the additional ability to mix/merge tracks.

Bounce File Management
Every Bounce operation creates new audio files that are placed into the Pool for the current Song.

Merge Events (Audio/Instrument Parts G ): will Glue the events together into an Audio/Instrument Part which can be dissolved back into its separate parts later. Parts are used for clean up, convenient moves, if you want to duplicate the combined events, want to apply a consistent edit too many events or drag many events into the Browser as a single audio loop (retaining each slice or event).

Bounce (selection) Audio Events Ctrl+B: Renders a copy of the event(s) (as in a new file in the pool) in place. This can be helpful if you want to apply different transient edits or Melodyne Edits to the same original event to create variation. ( create a copy first or drag from the pool)
It will also merge multiple selected events on the same track together into a new copy of the combined events. This is useful to clean up a track that may have many audio slices or events on it. It does not apply or remove the FX’s that are on the corresponding channel. It does apply event based FX and envelopes. It also with snap on, extends the event to the nearest measure. Turn snap off if you want the actual event length.

Bounce Instrument Events: Will render the Instrument MIDI data to an audio event on a new track. It will then mute the original Instrument track. Instrument bounce will apply FX’s that are on the corresponding, Instrument Channel but keep the FX on the original muted Instrument track. It can be helpful if an external or internal Instrument needs to be rendered to audio.

Bounce to New Track: Ctrl+Alt+B is very much like Bounce Instrument in that it uses the FX on the Channel to create a new track and mutes the original. This gives you more flexibility in the Bouncing process for audio tracks in that the original with the original FX are kept in the project but the event is muted. This means you can with a few clicks get back to the original or create many FX variations on the same source file on additional tracks. Or think of it as a convenient way to copy( not duplicate) an event at the same point in time to a new track

Transform Audio Track: will render the audio with the FX that are on the corresponding Channel in place as well as use the Auto tail feature to include long delays or decays. This is a more flexible way to apply FX to an audio track for the sake of reducing CPU hungry FX’s as it applies the FX and is un-doable.

Transform Instrument Track: Like Audio Transform Track but has too many options to explain here as it also deals with removing instruments and rendering multiple outputs for a given instrument. It is the ultimate Freeze unfreeze choice for instruments.

Export Stems /Import to track (case) The option can yield similar results as the Bounce to track option as you can try many variations of FX and Event edits between each render to a track. It also has the unique ability to mix of merge multiple tracks into one track. I.E the historical " reel to reel" root to the term “bounce”.

Drag an Instrument track event(s) to an Audio track This is essentially an Instrument Track Transform but only for selected events. You end up with a compound Audio + Instrument data event like a transform. File length equals selected events, Includes the audio events + Event FX + Event envelope, Does NOT include channel or master bus processing

EXPORTING AUDIO STEMS/CHANNELS for Various Reasons:
• Song Export Stems / Channels:
o Any channels including bus or FX channels
o File length equals range selected in export
o Includes all upstream processing (Channels inserts FX, Event FX, Event envelopes, Channels Fader level/pan, Mutes)
o Does NOT include Master channel settings: (Fader level, Inserts)

• Song Export Stems / Tack, or Song Export Mix down:
o Must be a track ( no bus or FX channels)
o File length equals range selected in export
o Includes The entire signal chain including master settings: (Channels inserts FX, Event FX, Event envelopes, Channels Fader level/pan, Mutes, Master channel settings: (Fader level, Inserts)

• Drag a track event to a Studio One Browser/Folder: (example: My songs events audio)
o File length equals event size (no position within the song)
o Includes the audio events + Event FX + Event envelope
o Does NOT include channel or master bus processing

• Alt+ Drag a track event to a Studio One Browser/Folder:
o File length equals event size
o Includes all upstream processing (Channels inserts FX, Event FX, Event envelopes, Channels Fader level/pan, Mutes) but not master bus processing

• (Select all events with Range Tool starting at zero) Drag a track event to a Studio One Browser/Folder: (example: My songs events audio)
o A file length equals the range selected (with independent events at the correct times within song)
o Includes the audio events + Event FX + Event envelope
o Does NOT include channel or master bus processing

• <Song folder>/Media:
o Raw unprocessed files that were recorded in Studio One or Imported media (Not Soundset based loops)
o Length equals event size
About 75% test for accuracy.

Well I´m exactly aware of what all of these are doing. The point is, that this description should include a warning like "ATTENTION, be aware of "transform to audio" and "transform to rendered audio" will DELETE all layers of the source track"
Of course there are workarounds. I already wrote in my first post that I created a macro, which duplicates, deactivates and hides the source-track, so I can always come back to the original state. I just think this workaround should not be necessary.

 

[Vocalpoint]

We should also be clear that there is no such thing (in v7 anyway) called "Transform to Audio" - when right clicking on an actual audio track.

The only choice is "Transform to Rendered Audio" and is vastly different from what is possible with the "Transform to Audio" used on an instrument track.

And 100% in agreement - if this is not actually broken - but works by design - S1 should be posting a huge warning message if a user ever tries to use "Transform to Rendered Audio" on a comp track with a pile of layers just waiting to be deleted.

That is a huge workflow gaffe that I can see would truly burn anyone being caught by it.

VP

 

[tacman7]

>>transform to rendered audio" will DELETE all layers of the source track"<<

I haven't found that to be true, it will remove what you have on the active track but the layers are not affected.

But the audio in what was bounced is still in the pool, nothing is deleted there until you do it.

 

[Wolfger]

Yes, "transform to rendered audio" is for audio tracks and "transform to audio" is for instrument tracks. Sorry if I mixed those up.
But both exhibit the same behaviour of loosing layers when executed and on both you end up with a rendered audio file and lost work.

 

[Wolfger]

>>transform to rendered audio" will DELETE all layers of the source track"<<

I haven't found that to be true, it will remove what you have on the active track but the layers are not affected.

But the audio in what was bounced is still in the pool, nothing is deleted there until you do it.

No one said, that audio is deleted in the pool, we are talking about layers.
I just tried:
Recorded 2 layers

Transform to rendered audio (reverb as insert, fixed tail)

Result:

Transform back to realtime audio: No option of opening layers in the track-header, and what´s even worse no restoring of the starting event length, but at least option of selecting takes in the event. No one can convince me, that this is how it should be! Happens in v6 and v7

 

[Vocalpoint]

Transform back to realtime audio: No option of opening layers in the track-header, and what´s even worse no restoring of the starting event length, but at least option of selecting takes in the event. No one can convince me, that this is how it should be! Happens in v6 and v7
View attachment 145

Ah - so you can at least "select" the takes - but just cannot see them? Do I have this right?

If this is case - this is at least something - which is better than nothing. Please confirm.

VP

 

[Wolfger]

And with MIDI: 3 Layers

Ah - so you can at least "select" the takes - but just cannot see them? Do I have this right?

If this is case - this is at least something - which is better than nothing. Please confirm.

VP

Yes, it seems so! And they are correct length also, but only after switching between takes two to three times.
This is all very strange!

 

[Wolfger]

Tried with MIDI: 3 Layers

Transform Instrument track: Mai Tai with reverb insert:

Result as expected:

Transform back to instrument track:
Result, restored correctly, but no more layers, nothing to recreate from pool or option to select takes from the event--- work lost
I can´t make it more clear, this just is not right.

 

[Wolfger]

Further testing: The behaviour of not recreating the correct length of an audio event after transforming back to realtime audio, doesn´t happen when there are no layers before transforming.