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Solved DAW Sound - Studio One vs. Cakewalk

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Kendomixes

Kendomixes

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I know this concept has been discussed and I believe largely dismissed/laughed at. Can DAW's sound different if using all the same plugins? The DAW is just the interface for managing audio, midi, tracks, etc so it shouldn't. I switched to Studio One from Cakewalk over a year ago. I love the UI/UX in Studio One, so much happier with it, much faster.

BUT - my mixes don't sound as good. I have several projects that I started in Cakewalk and I've migrated. I save all my plugin presets and do a one for one match on settings across tracks and when I A/B them, very different. Specifically Drums has been my focus - I use Superior Drummer and ensure I'm suing the exact same kit and internal mixer settings. Just not as punchy or crisp.

Am I crazy? Has anyone else experienced this? I know there are a bunch of Cakewalk converts here. I've checked the pro channel to to make sure I don't have something like enabled in those native plugins. I'll keep investigating but for some current projects I'm going to migrate back to Cakewalk as what sounds good matters most.

Thanks
Scott
 
I don't believe so, Scott. However, there are a lot of variables moving stems, plugins (even with same settings) over to a new song, let alone another DAW. Imagine, your original plugin settings were tailored to what was going on in Cakewalk in that initial setting of compiled tracks and effects.

Now, enter newly inserted tracks, whatever mix bus or effect levels played a part in the
original song to another DAW.
It's extremely likely the mixes will be different. Potentially quite different, or with a little luck, close. Things now lined up will have a host of differences. That's not to the fault of the DAW that you're hearing "sounds different". Developers go through great lengths to give the highest dynamic range, accurate signal, and bit depth (currently 64 bit, floating point) to allow for the highest audio processing within the framework your working in (i.e. 48Kh, 24 bit). They ensure their own on board effects, and tracks null perfectly (by reversing phase). Typically at the very least, greater than the effect plugins, your considering using or have the same settings with. A DAW is far greater than just an interface in terms of the audio quality.

So I'd have to say, you need to go track by track, checking both the gain, and EQ. Then enter the effects to tailor how you want it to sound. Then, enter any compressors, or DSP within those track by track, or group by group comparisons.

It's really our own checks and balances, and I can assure you that audio changes are not due to a DAW's sound. There are no DAW's sound that I've heard about.
Of course, someone might join in and say remember when some audio enhancement, or better 32fp to 64fp changed things, or some update impacted an EQ? While they'd be right, the overall DAW audio quality that we're speaking on is very high. So it's really about checking our own work, than suggesting varied DAW audio quality.
Hope that helps!
 
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First: This is not a tip/trick/tutorial. I moved this thread to "Community Support".

We can shorten the discussion. Studio One's and Cakewalk's (or any DAW's) audio engine sound identical. Period.

Kendomixes said:
I know this concept has been discussed and I believe largely dismissed/laughed at. Can DAW's sound different if using all the same plugins? The DAW is just the interface for managing audio, midi, tracks, etc so it shouldn't. I switched to Studio One from Cakewalk over a year ago. I love the UI/UX in Studio One, so much happier with it, much faster.

BUT - my mixes don't sound as good.
Click to expand...

Maybe you're used to Cakewalk, so you do things differently in both DAWs. There can be many psychological reasons for this. Or, of course, technical reasons, like using different plug-ins, different versions of plug-ins, or using them differently.

But this has nothing to do with the sound of the DAWs themselves: There is no audible difference.
 
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Start a project from scratch in Studio One. eg stop migrating things half way from one DAW to another. Start and completely finish the project in Studio One and then compare. I think you will find that your ears will bring the final Studio One mix to the same place that you were getting to in Cakewalk. Any final mix sound is a result of what you do in the mix process. It is not DAW dependant.

If you do want to migrate though only migrate the raw audio tracks and re do the mix completely in Studio One. eg set the plug in sounds by ear.

I have to agree with Lucas in that the idea of one DAW sounding better than another is false. Harrison Mixbus is supposed to have a special sound but that is also not true. I mixed a drum track once with 10 drum tracks on both Mixbus and Studio One. I got a complete null when I reversed the polarity and added the two mixes together.

A world class mix engineer is going to get a much better mix than you in Studio One using the same raw audio tracks. Its down to the individual not the DAW.
 
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Lukas said:
Studio One's and Cakewalk's (or any DAW's) audio engine sound identical. Period.
Click to expand...
I, like many other people, have done multiple null tests comparing various DAWs. Although in some cases it is possible to subtract the delta between two mixes, it is so low in amplitude, so indiscernible, that it can be safely ignored. Any minute difference, if it exists, can be explained by how sound engines crunch floating numbers. A nice explanation with examples can be found here:
randomascii.wordpress.com

Comparing Floating Point Numbers, 2012 Edition

This post is a more carefully thought out and peer reviewed version of a floating-point comparison article I wrote many years ago. This one gives solid advice and some surprising observations about…
randomascii.wordpress.com randomascii.wordpress.com

I tend to think about such small differences from the perspective of old school analog gear. No two pieces of hardware are absolutely equal, but it never stops engineers from using what they got. In the end of the day, it's music that matters. And how much fun you get when you make it.
 
The only difference between DAWs is that, if you set the same value when it comes to volume or panning for instance, then yes, you will most likely get small variations.
 
One of the significant things that could cause differences between mixes in Studio One and Cakewalk is the pan law. Studio One has only one pan law, -3dB. This pan law is always applied, the only exceptions would be if the Dual Pan native plugin or some 3rd party panning plugin is intentionally used on a given channel or bus.

Cakewalk allows users to select from 6 different pan laws, which is both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that the user has their choice. The curse is that this option is set and stored at the global level (Preferences, Audio, Device Settings), and can be changed at any time, including unintentionally when updating the program to the latest version. Anytime the pan law option is changed, every project played through the program is suddenly subject to the new global pan law, and could sound different than it did prior to the pan law change. I always used to choose -3dB as the pan law, but guess what? It looks like the most recent update to CbB changed it to 0dB, so all my Cakewalk projects now sound different. I'll have to put it back to -3dB to get them to sound the way I mixed them.

If the pan law setting that is currently set in your Cakewalk Preferences is not -3dB, then it is very possible when importing the audio from a Cakewalk project into a Studio One song for it to sound different for that reason alone.

Other than technical things like this, or the inclusion of DSP either chosen by the user or hidden behind the scenes, there shouldn't be any differences in the mixing sound engine from one DAW to another.
 
Studio One's pan law is not fixed at -3db at all. Insert the Dual Pan plugin and you will get 5 other pan law options
 
I'll use my first post to state my fervent hope that the unending succession of "Why isn't Studio One Cakewalk?" posts that marred the previous forum's last days are moderated on this new forum. This forum is titled to indicate it's all about the community supporting Studio One--not for lively debate on why it behaves differently from Cakewalk or how to achieve similar results. Perhaps another sub-forum titled "Cakewalk to Studio One" or "Studio One vs. Other Daws" could be created where Cakewalk refugees for one could ask whatever they want about the differences to their heart's content, so their posts aren't all commingled in here to be ignored by those of us who've never spent a moment on Cakewalk and came here to learn more about Studio One itself, not how it compares to other DAWs?
 
What's guiding you when you create the two mixes for the comparison: Your ears or your eyes? It is tempting to create two mixes that look the same but that also enters the GUIs into the equation. How fine/precise is parameter control or event placement/representation in each DAW? Tiny GUI differences can lead to audible differences even when everything is made to look the same. The key question is: Can you create a mix in DAW B that sounds exactly the same as the one from DAW A? If so then the whole discussion becomes an academic one, right? ;)
 
Lots of interesting discussion here and thanks for all the input. As stated in the post... same midi file, same instrument, same plugins/settings, gains, levels, etc. But when I listen with my ears, it's not the same and what I have in Cakewalk is better (more what I want). I posted to see if my expectations should be that I have to adjust plugin settings, etc to get the sound I was able to achieve in Cakewalk. Sounds like there's some suggestion I may have to. I hope this is a fair question to post here as it is about trouble achieving something in Studio One and any guidance from those that have migrated is helpful. For one projected where I was challenged, I exported stems from Cakewalk to use in Studio one rather than trying to recreate/match.
 
Kendomixes said:
Lots of interesting discussion here and thanks for all the input. As stated in the post... same midi file, same instrument, same plugins/settings, gains, levels, etc. But when I listen with my ears, it's not the same and what I have in Cakewalk is better (more what I want). I posted to see if my expectations should be that I have to adjust plugin settings, etc to get the sound I was able to achieve in Cakewalk. Sounds like there's some suggestion I may have to. I hope this is a fair question to post here as it is about trouble achieving something in Studio One and any guidance from those that have migrated is helpful. For one projected where I was challenged, I exported stems from Cakewalk to use in Studio one rather than trying to recreate/match.
Click to expand...

As long as you haven’t done a double blind folded listening test you can’t really be sure.
Also, this is the first discussion in eons I see where someone claims Cakewalk sounds better than any other program.
 
Here's something that may account for an audible difference. The most common pan law (which is Studio One's default) drops the center by -3 dB. However, Cakewalk increases the left and right to create the -3 dB drop rather than dropping the center. So, you may think you're choosing the same level with your channel fader, but practically speaking there could be a level increase that makes the sound "pop" more.

To find out more about pan laws, I wrote an article for Harmony Central over 10 years ago, but the basic principles it describes are still relevant. I also did a Studio One-specific pan law post for the PreSonus blog. Unfortunately it was in the group of older posts that were purged during the platform change. However, it has been updated in v2.1 of The Huge Book of Studio One Tips and Tricks. If you have the book, it starts on page 908.

In other pan law fun facts, -4.5 dB is the pan depth used by Solid State Logic consoles. SSL was the first company to include compression on every channel. With a -4.5 pan depth, a compressor in a channel panned to center reacts differently. This gives a subtle depth to the mix. Conversely, the -2.5 dB pan depth gives a more “up front” sonic character. It’s possible to create these subjective changes in the mix itself, so you can consider using a -2.5 dB or -4.5 dB pan depth as a "preset" that provides a specific effect. Or, if you anticipate that the stereo will collapse to mono after the main bus, then you'd choose a -6 dB linear pan law.

I'm 100% with those who believe sonic differences among today's DAWs are ireelevant. The topic was relevant with early DAWs or sound editing programs that used 16-bit mix engines. They sounded worse than later DAWs that had 24-bit or floating-point mix engines.
 
Kendomixes said:
Lots of interesting discussion here and thanks for all the input. As stated in the post... same midi file, same instrument, same plugins/settings, gains, levels, etc. But when I listen with my ears, it's not the same and what I have in Cakewalk is better (more what I want). I posted to see if my expectations should be that I have to adjust plugin settings, etc to get the sound I was able to achieve in Cakewalk. Sounds like there's some suggestion I may have to. I hope this is a fair question to post here as it is about trouble achieving something in Studio One and any guidance from those that have migrated is helpful. For one projected where I was challenged, I exported stems from Cakewalk to use in Studio one rather than trying to recreate/match.
Click to expand...
It sounds different "to your ears" because you are doing something different. Read the responses (I know you are). People are giving you ways to break it down. The short if it is DAW's do not sound different from one another. That was your question. That is my answer.
.....break it down. I know you are track by track and particularly with drums. There should be nothing different (yet there is). Check your monitoring, processing, and routing. If you still are not satisfied, then start fresh. Studio One has exemplary performance. Consider: we all can't be wrong in the industry for saying that. So maybe, it's something you're doing.
👍
You mentioned "not as punchy or crisp".
Break down what that might be. It likely wont be pan law, but something with your gain, over use of compression, EQ, etc. Perhaps it's all of the above. How else could we anwer that?

Or what Jemusic said. Finish the song with Cakewalk/ or both and compare. It's about the music. Why change up, midstream? It's not the DAW, it's the many variables (or one) you're facing that you haven't uncovered yet.

You've got good hints from everyone as ro what that might be.
 
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"Why change up, midstream?" - this is my dilemma... I am thinking about finishing the track in Cakewalk but for every other reason I MUCH prefer working in Studio One. Just challenged to match what matters most. And I'm not saying you can't get great sounding mixes with Studio One. What I'm hearing is different despite a setting per setting translation. You're probably right that in some way the input gain into a the plugins is different driving compressors differently or something (maybe that's pan law??). But it's not a setting I can visibly see in the inputs, faders, plugins, instruments. Right now I"m effectively restarting in Studio One to see if I can get equivalent or maybe better sound. Thanks again for all the suggestions! Happy mixing!
 
I just came from 10 years of using Cakewalk. 100 projects created in it and I really don't hear any difference. My first Studio One project was to remix a recent a Cakewalk project which was just audio WAV files. I believe Studio Ones remix if anything sounds better. I just did a complete project (vsti keys, drums, bass, strings & voc) and I think all sound great. It's probably my imagination but I think Studio One sounds better overall.
:)John B
 
Moderators: perhaps change the name of this sub-forum to Studio One and Cakewalk Community Support since none of you seem to care that Studio One forums get taken over by Cakewalk refugees who can't fathom why Studio One isn't as wondrous as their beloved Cakewalk yet have migrated to a Studio One forum anyhow.
 
There's nothing wrong with users from different backgrounds asking questions, as long as they're related to Studio One. All users here, whether they're coming from Cakewalk or elsewhere, have chosen Studio One for a reason and are part of our community now.

We generally discourage comparisons between DAWs, as they often divert from productive discussions. In this case, the matter was straightforward to clarify.
 
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MisterE said:
Moderators: perhaps change the name of this sub-forum to Studio One and Cakewalk Community Support since none of you seem to care that Studio One forums get taken over by Cakewalk refugees who can't fathom why Studio One isn't as wondrous as their beloved Cakewalk yet have migrated to a Studio One forum anyhow.
Click to expand...
@ MisterE,
Speaking on behalf of myself, I don't get that impression in the least. First, the forum doesn't screen previous DAW users. If 50 Pro Tools users come in, or are even already here (I know a few, including myself), and raise other questions of various complexity, I'm not sure that constitutes a sub-forum name change. C'mon MisterE, you respectfully know better than that. Something is obviously getting under your skin about Cakewalk, and that's on you (twice now you've commented on this), not this forum title to consider a name change. ALL of these good people are production minded, musicians, professional or amateur, enthusiasts. If you don't like the content or it's questions, don't read it. Use the forum strictly to your advantage. I came a few ticks from selecting Sonar, when I was first looking at Studio One. In some ways, it has some superior advantages. Some, not so. But I welcome every one of those folks, here. They got a raw deal, and have moved on, and contribute. So perhaps the rest of us should as well.
Peace, out.
 
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